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What can be done about this as a consumer looking to buy a new car? - Can I turn off data collection? - Can I corrupt data transmission and collection?
by pards 2y ago
What can be done about this as a consumer looking to buy a new car?
- Can I turn off data collection?
- Can I corrupt data transmission and collection?
- Can I charge per kb for any data collected?
- Is the dealer obligated to disclose data collection?
I'll be in the market for a new car in the next few years but I do not want to buy anything that tracks or collects ANY data about me.
I was assuming that buying a cheap non-electric car would offer some protection but I'd love to know more.
- penjelly 2y agomany cars now have a TPU, used for connectivity and GPS, which will send telematics data when you start and stop the car. This tracking is not typically easy or possible to opt out of, in my experience.
- LeftHandPath 2y agoMy plan is to buy an old 1960-1970 280SL (or, really, any somewhat reliable vintage car) and stubbornly refuse to drive anything else.
- diggan 2y agoThere are more recent cars than going back to the 70s that doesn't force data collection on you... My car is from 2018 and has none of that stuff, and it even has buttons for all controls, no touchscreen (2018 Audi A3). I like the feel of driving classic/older cars, but I really cannot justify the safety and pollution drawbacks if I wanted to use them daily.
- tomrod 2y agoWhat do you recommend? I thought everything 2015 forward collected data.
- diggan 2y agoAs mentioned elsewhere in the subthreads somewhere here, I got a 2018 Audi A3 in 2019, wrote about the experience re data collection + that purchase here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42736918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42736918
- capitainenemo 2y agoProbably not the kind of car you are looking for, but my friend's 2015 honda odyssey (which he just traded in) had no smarts. No cellular, no GPS, console used knobs instead of a touchscreen... Whatever Deadpool's opinion of it was, it did make a great van for cargo and humans with good fuel economy for that class... But, sooner or later it'll be a problem. What would be interesting to me is, is it possible to deactivate cellular on a modern car without losing key functionality, and, if it is ever reactivated (say, to pull updates) would it promptly push years of data upstream.
- tomrod 2y agoIronically, we're replacing a 2011 Honda Odyssey!
- dvdbloc 2y agoIf you’re willing to do a little bit of work you can often remove the cellular radio from some modern cars to remove the data collection connectivity, not sure if it’d still be buffered on the device still but it’s a step in the correct direction. I’ve read about this in some modern BMWs so it might be worth a bit of googling if you have a particular modern car you are interested in. Or if no one else has done it with a particular model you could also blaze your own path here.
- tomrod 2y agoI worry that removal or faraday caging might cause bricking.
- pmontra 2y agoMy second hand Citroën C3 originally sold on 2016 doesn't collect data AFAIK and has button and wheel controls. There is a small touchscreen (7 inches?) for configuration, trip data, radio stations etc but all controls are also on the wheel or around it.
- LeftHandPath 2y agoFor sure. I just really like the SL! Currently have a 2012 C350 Coupe that I love to death. Have had it since 2018. Fantastic car, I don’t think it spies on me too much
- autoexec 2y agoMore recent cars probably have onstar systems installed that need to be removed.
- NotYourLawyer 2y agoResearch the car ahead of time and figure out how to disconnect the telematics control unit (or whatever that manufacturer calls it).
- FollowingTheDao 2y agoI own a 2001 Dodge Grand Caravan. No tracking. Runs Great. I just keep fixing it, much cheaper than a new car. Plus I can live in it as well. I do not know the year they started with all the tracking stuff but you can find an older car that does not have any tracking and spend the rest of the money making it mint. There is no getting away from it though, we are all watched over by the machines of loving grace. You know with the new LoRaWAN and IoT everywhere scam they are rolling out there will be nothing you can do to escape the surveillance apparatus. I am giving up. no sense in fighting it anymore. I am just a good little corporate boy toy now.
- pards 2y agoThis might be the way forward - buy a well-built older car and learn to DIY basic maintenance and repairs.
- 14 2y agoThat is one of the worst cars to own. You will continue to fix it more frequently at an accelerated rate mark my words. So much cheap plastic parts the parts are right at that point where they will fail molecularly and you see an increased rate of failure. To top it off the replacement parts are mostly the same age and those 2 will look new but also fail quickly. Lastly Dodge sucks. They are basically the last car I would ever buy.
- mmooss 2y ago> there will be nothing you can do That makes it much easier for people to collect data. People read on the Internet, yet again, that they are powerless.
- diggan 2y ago> What can be done about this as a consumer looking to buy a new car? For a consumer in the US, I have no idea, but I'm guessing your question is about that since the story is US-specific? Probably off-topic, but buying a car in 2019 in Spain, they asked me if I'm OK with data-collection during the purchase, up until car delivery, and handed me a contract to sign for "treatment of personal data". I said no, we moved on. After buying the car (2018 Audi A3), they threw in some remote-monitoring sensor "for free" that could let me/them see metrics about the car, for "maintenance" and whatever they claimed, that they offered to install. I again said "no", but kept the device itself to pick apart at some later time. But overall, they seem required to ask (here, EU) but no one batted an eye when I said no. The car has a SIM-card reader, but never used it, I'm guessing if I install a SIM-card the car would ask me if data collection is OK, because we'll always have the choice at least. Electric cars seems like a no-no for now (everywhere possibly), since all of them came with a "always on connection" regardless of what I want, at least last time I checked.
- extraduder_ire 2y agoFor a few years now, every new car sold in the EU needs a cellular connection for e-call (when airbags are deployed, the car calls 112 itself) functionality. I don't know if it's legal or common to reuse that radio for collecting other data. I would hope not.
- diggan 2y ago> For a few years now, every new car sold in the EU needs a cellular connection for e-call Damn, that sucks. Hope my current car lasts a long time then... It even has buttons and everything. > I don't know if it's legal or common to reuse that radio for collecting other data. I would hope not My guess would be that when you first get it/boot it, you'll at least get a choice between accepting it or not, that would be the baseline.
- hnpolicestate 2y agoSometimes I feel bad for repeating myself but relevant threads keep appearing. Mazda won't permit me to use remote start because I refused to install their app and enable connected services. The man I worked with on the lease was extraordinarily aggressive with me. Almost demanding I install and register this app to complete lease agreement. So now I don't have remote start and every time I turn the car on I have to select cancel on an infotainment prompt asking me to enable connected services. The TOS specifically says driving data will be sold to 3rd parties including law enforcement and insurance companies.
- diggan 2y agoDoesn't that kind of make sense when leasing though, you're essentially doing "long renting" and you don't actually own the car?
- gertop 2y agoI find it amusing that you think privacy rights should only be for buyers and not renters.
- diggan 2y agoRenters of what? Items people can just take and leave with, yeah I think it's OK they keep track of the thing while I'm renting it. A home though? I guess it makes sense that they can sometimes inspect it, but I expect privacy in my own home even if I'm renting. So yeah, depends. Is there some fallacy in my views or something I'm missing?
- hn1986 2y agoUnfortunately, a car like Tesla collects so much data. And it's only a matter of time before they start selling it. I don't know if any other car company that collects more data than Tesla.
- whamlastxmas 2y agoI think I’d pick Tesla, even if it’s more data, because they have never sold that data or indicated they ever would. Unlike literally every other manufacturer that has and does
- MetaWhirledPeas 2y agoI agree if only because Tesla seems so vertically integrated and dedicated to their vision. Nowhere in their vision is "establish a side hustle of selling user data for extra cash".
- floatrock 2y agolol has any OEM ever indicated they would sell data? Or was the truth pulled out of them after an extended legal fight where lawyers quibbled over whether weasel-words like "maintenance and quality assurance purposes" covered "selling technically anonymous information to a data broker but everyone knows there's enough metadata in there that the data broker attaches an identity when they resell it to the insurance companies"? Gut check, sure, but I wouldn't trust the company that argued technically autopilot wasn't turned on in car crashes because they turned it off milliseconds before the sensed impact and blamed it on driver inattention as being a good, well-intentioned data steward.
- ActionHank 2y ago"I'd pick Tesla because they're pretty cool guy and don't afraid of anything."
- hulitu 2y ago> because they have never sold that data or indicated they ever would. They all do this until you press "I agree". Some do it even before.
- tomrod 2y agoI am deeply interested in better understanding faraday cages that can block transmission.
- hulitu 2y ago> I am deeply interested in better understanding faraday cages that can block transmission. You cannot shield your car (ok, you can, but then you cannot drive it). What you can do is disturb the antenna so not enough power will be available to be sent.
- diggan 2y agoQuick search seems to reveal Indium Tin Oxide (ITO) coated glass is transparent enough to let through visible light, but blocks transmissions. One could theoretically build a car with that for the windows. The rest seems easier.
- mrguyorama 2y agoThe antenna doesn't have to be in the passenger cabin. You can make the passenger cabin a perfect faraday cage and it won't do anything.
- acuozzo 2y ago> Can I corrupt data transmission and collection? In my 2018 Chevy Volt Premier it's not too difficult to disconnect the LTE module. You lose OnStar, remote start, and other "connected" features, but the car and CarPlay still work. https://www.jamesxli.com/2024/chevy-volt-disable-cellular.html https://www.jamesxli.com/2024/chevy-volt-disable-cellular.ht...