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Apollo WAS an impressive achievement Starship IS an impressive achievement while they speed up development process with real-world hard data New Glenn IS an i

by jve 2y ago

Apollo WAS an impressive achievement Starship IS an impressive achievement while they speed up development process with real-world hard data New Glenn IS an impressive achievement while taking their time to develop a vehicle that reached the orbit on first time Per wiki on Apollo > Landing humans on the Moon by the end of 1969 required the most sudden burst of technological creativity, and the largest commitment of resources ($25 billion; $182 billion in 2023 US dollars)[22] ever made by any nation in peacetime. At its peak, the Apollo program employed 400,000 people and required the support of over 20,000 industrial firms and universities.[23] Different budget, different number of people working on this stuff and different mindset. Actually the Apollo program was also iterative and it paid off.

tsimionescu 2y ago
The Apollo program was inventing all of this technology, and using only extremely rudimentary computers, still doing many calculations with slide rulers. SpaceX has all of the Apollo program's work to build on, and computers that could do all the computing work that the Apollo program ever made, in total, in probably a few minutes.
- throw5959 2y ago
  SpaceX is inventing quite a lot, there's more areas where they started greenfield than where they got help.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    They are inventing a little, but the basics of rocket flight are now well understood. You can get a university (probably post grad) course on it. And nothing that they are doing is all that revolutionary, definitely not compared to what Apollo did (going from airplanes and ballistic missiles to orbital space flight and then Moon missions). Consider that even reusable self-landings boosters were being worked on in the 90s, before funding was cut off. And for expandable rockets, virtually all rockets designed and launched in the last few decades have successfully accomplished their first ever flight, launching some kind of payload to orbit.
    - perihelions 2y ago
      - "And for expandable rockets, virtually all rockets designed and launched in the last few decades have successfully accomplished their first ever flight," That doesn't resonate as true to me. The first Ariane 5 flight blew up [0]. That Europe's current heavy-lift workhorse with 112 successful launches (including JWST), but the first one blew up. The first PSLV blew up [1]. That's India's current workhorse with 58 successes, but flight #1 was not successful. Their GSLV did not reach its correct orbit on its first flight either [2], though it didn't blow up. The first Delta IV Heavy did not blow up, but it failed to reach its correct orbit [3]. That was US' largest launch vehicle for most of the 21st century. The first Long March 5 failed to reach its correct orbit, and the second one blew up [4]. That's China's current heavy-lift launch vehicle, since 2016. South Korea's first orbital rocket RUD'd both its first flights, in 2009 and 2010 [5]. Japan's newest orbital rocket was launched in 2023, and that blew up [6]. Rocket Labs' Electron has a current >90% success rate, but the first one blew up [7]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5#Launch_history [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PSLV_launches#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PSLV_launches#Statisti... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GSLV_launches#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GSLV_launches#Statisti... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_IV_Heavy#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_IV_Heavy#Launch_history [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_5 [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naro-1#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naro-1#Launch_history [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H3_(rocket)#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H3_(rocket)#Launch_history [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab_Electron#Launch_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab_Electron#Launch_sta...
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - tsimionescu 2y ago
        You're right that I exaggerated, sorry about that. Still, many of these are more successful than Starship: The first GSLV was still able to deploy a satellite, just in a lower orbit than intended. The first Delta IV had the same problem, satellite deployed, but in a lower orbit than planned. The first Long March 5 is classed as a full success on Wikipedia, I couldn't find info there about a failure (the second one did blow up). The Rocket Labs' Electron did get destroyed. However it was later found that nothing at all was wrong with the vehicle, it was a failure in the ground software, and an identical vehicle successfully carried out its mission 7 months later. In contrast, the first two Starships blew up completely due to engine issues, and no Starship has deployed even a test payload of some kind to orbit. In fact, until today, none even carried a payload of any kind, they have all been flying empty.
- me_me_me 2y ago
  this doesn't even scratch the surface. Slow motion cameras and real time sensors for debugging hardware issues, computer simulations, 3d printing. Apollo program directors would advocate to start a nuclear war with ussr if they could get hands on that kind of tech. But also NASA landed two SUVs on mars first try, using skycrane, Full remote. they developed and built mars helicopter/drone (rip). First try. But spaceX gets the glory because... break things??
  - saberience 2y ago
    This seems like a fairly disingenuous comment. SpaceX gets credit and rightly so because they have achieved things which no national space agency nor private company has ever done before, and done it faster and at a lower budget than anyone has done before. Every other national space agency and private company had both infinitely more money, time, and engineers than SpaceX did (when founded) yet they were making zero progress on reusable rockets, cheap super heavy lift capacity to orbit, and America had no way of taking their own astronauts to the space station! Musk (hate him or love him) founded a company from nothing which has exceeded the capabilities of nasa and the us government, the European space agency, and the russian space agency, as well as ULA, Boeing, Lockheed etc. They have the first rocket ever made which can take payloads to orbit and then be reused. They have the most cost effective rocket ever made for taking loads to orbit. They have reused rockets up to 20 times! They have build the most powerful rocket ever built which is fully reusable. They have built the most efficient and powerful rocket engines ever built before. And they have done it all incredibly quickly starting from nothing. Oh and they also built a massive internet constellation providing fast and cheap satellite internet to the whole world, saving countless lives and also helping stimulate economies across the world as well as enabling more remote work etc. So much of what they have done was considered impossible or not economical or not practical or so difficult other countries or companies didn’t even TRY. So yes. Given their success it’s worth trying to understand their development methodology, which is iterate fast and fail lots and learn lots. Given how much they’ve kicked the shit out of the SLS program in capability and budget and also how they’ve crushed Blue Origin (which started earlier with more budget) who both operate in a more old fashioned way, I would certainly say it’s important to acknowledge they may be doing something right!

by jve 2y ago

tsimionescu 2y ago

The Apollo program was inventing all of this technology, and using only extremely rudimentary computers, still doing many calculations with slide rulers. SpaceX has all of the Apollo program's work to build on, and computers that could do all the computing work that the Apollo program ever made, in total, in probably a few minutes.

throw5959 2y ago
SpaceX is inventing quite a lot, there's more areas where they started greenfield than where they got help.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  They are inventing a little, but the basics of rocket flight are now well understood. You can get a university (probably post grad) course on it. And nothing that they are doing is all that revolutionary, definitely not compared to what Apollo did (going from airplanes and ballistic missiles to orbital space flight and then Moon missions). Consider that even reusable self-landings boosters were being worked on in the 90s, before funding was cut off. And for expandable rockets, virtually all rockets designed and launched in the last few decades have successfully accomplished their first ever flight, launching some kind of payload to orbit.
  - perihelions 2y ago
    - "And for expandable rockets, virtually all rockets designed and launched in the last few decades have successfully accomplished their first ever flight," That doesn't resonate as true to me. The first Ariane 5 flight blew up [0]. That Europe's current heavy-lift workhorse with 112 successful launches (including JWST), but the first one blew up. The first PSLV blew up [1]. That's India's current workhorse with 58 successes, but flight #1 was not successful. Their GSLV did not reach its correct orbit on its first flight either [2], though it didn't blow up. The first Delta IV Heavy did not blow up, but it failed to reach its correct orbit [3]. That was US' largest launch vehicle for most of the 21st century. The first Long March 5 failed to reach its correct orbit, and the second one blew up [4]. That's China's current heavy-lift launch vehicle, since 2016. South Korea's first orbital rocket RUD'd both its first flights, in 2009 and 2010 [5]. Japan's newest orbital rocket was launched in 2023, and that blew up [6]. Rocket Labs' Electron has a current >90% success rate, but the first one blew up [7]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5#Launch_history [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PSLV_launches#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PSLV_launches#Statisti... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GSLV_launches#Statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GSLV_launches#Statisti... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_IV_Heavy#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_IV_Heavy#Launch_history [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March_5 [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naro-1#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naro-1#Launch_history [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H3_(rocket)#Launch_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H3_(rocket)#Launch_history [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab_Electron#Launch_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Lab_Electron#Launch_sta...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      You're right that I exaggerated, sorry about that. Still, many of these are more successful than Starship: The first GSLV was still able to deploy a satellite, just in a lower orbit than intended. The first Delta IV had the same problem, satellite deployed, but in a lower orbit than planned. The first Long March 5 is classed as a full success on Wikipedia, I couldn't find info there about a failure (the second one did blow up). The Rocket Labs' Electron did get destroyed. However it was later found that nothing at all was wrong with the vehicle, it was a failure in the ground software, and an identical vehicle successfully carried out its mission 7 months later. In contrast, the first two Starships blew up completely due to engine issues, and no Starship has deployed even a test payload of some kind to orbit. In fact, until today, none even carried a payload of any kind, they have all been flying empty.
me_me_me 2y ago
this doesn't even scratch the surface. Slow motion cameras and real time sensors for debugging hardware issues, computer simulations, 3d printing. Apollo program directors would advocate to start a nuclear war with ussr if they could get hands on that kind of tech. But also NASA landed two SUVs on mars first try, using skycrane, Full remote. they developed and built mars helicopter/drone (rip). First try. But spaceX gets the glory because... break things??
- saberience 2y ago
  This seems like a fairly disingenuous comment. SpaceX gets credit and rightly so because they have achieved things which no national space agency nor private company has ever done before, and done it faster and at a lower budget than anyone has done before. Every other national space agency and private company had both infinitely more money, time, and engineers than SpaceX did (when founded) yet they were making zero progress on reusable rockets, cheap super heavy lift capacity to orbit, and America had no way of taking their own astronauts to the space station! Musk (hate him or love him) founded a company from nothing which has exceeded the capabilities of nasa and the us government, the European space agency, and the russian space agency, as well as ULA, Boeing, Lockheed etc. They have the first rocket ever made which can take payloads to orbit and then be reused. They have the most cost effective rocket ever made for taking loads to orbit. They have reused rockets up to 20 times! They have build the most powerful rocket ever built which is fully reusable. They have built the most efficient and powerful rocket engines ever built before. And they have done it all incredibly quickly starting from nothing. Oh and they also built a massive internet constellation providing fast and cheap satellite internet to the whole world, saving countless lives and also helping stimulate economies across the world as well as enabling more remote work etc. So much of what they have done was considered impossible or not economical or not practical or so difficult other countries or companies didn’t even TRY. So yes. Given their success it’s worth trying to understand their development methodology, which is iterate fast and fail lots and learn lots. Given how much they’ve kicked the shit out of the SLS program in capability and budget and also how they’ve crushed Blue Origin (which started earlier with more budget) who both operate in a more old fashioned way, I would certainly say it’s important to acknowledge they may be doing something right!