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Inadvertently perfect timing for this footage. Glowing and backlit by the setting sun, against clear and already darkening evening sky... couldn't plan the shot

by olex 2y ago

Inadvertently perfect timing for this footage. Glowing and backlit by the setting sun, against clear and already darkening evening sky... couldn't plan the shot any better if you tried. Let's hope no debris came down on anyone or anything apart from open water.

andrewinardeer 2y ago
I take it if SpaceX debris hit and destroyed a boat the owner can claim damages from SpaceX? Does international space law allow for this?
- HPsquared 2y ago
  It's probably similar to if a US ship crashed into your yacht.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    Rules of the water says smaller ship yields right of way to bigger ship. Sounds like you screwed up if your yacht got hit by a bigger ship. Of course that applies when the vessels are not tied up. If a big ship his a docked boat, that's an entirely different scenario
    - lmm 2y ago
      > Rules of the water says smaller ship yields right of way to bigger ship. Sounds like you screwed up if your yacht got hit by a bigger ship. Not necessarily. Steam is obliged to give way to sail, even when the sailing ship is much smaller.
      - dotancohen 2y ago
        Where do Methalox-powered vehicles lie in this hierarchy? And if the Starship is not under power yet falling and using the flaperons for control, is that considered "under sail" for purposes of right of way?
        krisoft 2y ago
        For funsies i would call it a “vessel not under command”. At least after the breakup that feels to fit. But for real, i think the simple answer is that debris falling from space is outside of the scope of the ColRegs. Simply speaking they come too fast so you can’t maneuver your vessel out of their way, and unless you are a warship you don’t have the tools to even know where exactly they will hit. If you try to run you might even put yourself in their path. After all from the most unlucky position they would be just bright stationary spots on the sky getting ever so slightly bigger. Until they start to get bigger faster and faster. (Constant bearing and decreasing range being the hallmarks of an impending colision.)
      - krisoft 2y ago
        There is a lovely bit of complication with it! Not saying to correct you, just because i think it is a lovely bit of trivia even though it has nothing to do with space debris. Both sailing and power driven vessels need to give ways to (among other things) “vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver”. And an aircraft carrier launching or recovering aircraft is considered to be restricted in her ability to maneuver (quite rightfully so, it is hard enough to land on them without the ship swerving left and right). So that means that a mighty aircraft carrier needs to (at least according to the regulations) dodge tiny sailing ships, but once they start launching or recovering aircraft it is the responsibility of the sailing ship to avoid them. Source: Rule 18 of the ColRegs (The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972)
    - cdbyr 2y ago
      There is a whole hierarchy of right of way on the water, but a better rule of thumb is that the less maneuverable boat generally has priority. https://www.whoi.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Abbreviated-Guide-To-Navigation-Rules-of-the-Road.pdf https://www.whoi.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Abbreviated-...
      - ta1243 2y ago
        And of course there's the old tale: Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision. Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision. Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course. Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course. Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship. Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_ur...
- delichon 2y ago
  Musk said that part of the launch licensing was a requirement to estimate the potential damage to whales in the ocean. He said that the odds turned out to be so low that in his opinion if a whale gets hit it had it coming. https://jabberwocking.com/did-elon-musk-really-have-to-study-whether-his-rockets-might-hit-sharks-and-whales/ https://jabberwocking.com/did-elon-musk-really-have-to-study...
  - slippy 2y ago
    If a whale got hit, would the whale be able to file for damages?
    - petesergeant 2y ago
      [flagged]
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Liability_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Liability_Convention Only used once, when the Soviets dropped a nuclear reactor on Canada. > States (countries) bear international responsibility for all space objects that are launched within their territory. This means that regardless of who launches the space object, if it was launched from State A's territory, or from State A's facility, or if State A caused the launch to happen, then State A is fully liable for damages that result from that space object.
  - krick 2y ago
    I feel like it should be updated. When it was written it wasn't like every Musk could launch high-orbit rockets on sundays. Only actual states did.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      States can set whatever rules they like internally. The US can make SpaceX pay them back if they want.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dragonwriter 2y ago
        The President has very little case-by-case authority over civil liability between private parties. I suppose Trump could advocate that Congress pass a new liability regime more favorable to SpaceX speciically or private launchers generally, though.
        dylan604 2y ago
        Time and time again, we have seen GOP congress critters kowtow to Trump even before he won the election. You think any of them are going to suddenly grow a backbone and stand up to him now? You think if Musk picks up the phone and starts "asking" people they will push back?
- hnburnsy 2y ago
  https://www.npr.org/2024/06/23/nx-s1-5016923/space-debris-nasa-florida-home-lawsuit https://www.npr.org/2024/06/23/nx-s1-5016923/space-debris-na...
- somenameforme 2y ago
  Most things put into space are designed to burn upon uncontrolled descent through orbit. And then the overwhelming majority of Earth is water and even on land the overwhelming majority of land is either completely uninhabited or sparsely inhabited. And then even if against all odds somehow something doesn't burn up in the atmosphere, and somehow lands in a densely populated area - the odds of hitting a spot with somebody or something relevant on it is still quite low. The overall odds of actually hitting somewhere really bad are just astronomically low. Nonetheless, recently NASA won the lottery when part of some batteries they jettisoned from the ISS ended up crashing through a house in Florida. [1] Oddly enough there are treaties on this, but only from an international perspective - landing on your own country was not covered! But I'm certain NASA will obviously make it right, as would SpaceX. If they didn't, then surely the family could easily sue as well. [1] - https://www.space.com/space-debris-florida-family-nasa-lawsuit https://www.space.com/space-debris-florida-family-nasa-lawsu...

by olex 2y ago

andrewinardeer 2y ago

I take it if SpaceX debris hit and destroyed a boat the owner can claim damages from SpaceX? Does international space law allow for this?

HPsquared 2y ago
It's probably similar to if a US ship crashed into your yacht.
- dylan604 2y ago
  Rules of the water says smaller ship yields right of way to bigger ship. Sounds like you screwed up if your yacht got hit by a bigger ship. Of course that applies when the vessels are not tied up. If a big ship his a docked boat, that's an entirely different scenario
  - lmm 2y ago
    > Rules of the water says smaller ship yields right of way to bigger ship. Sounds like you screwed up if your yacht got hit by a bigger ship. Not necessarily. Steam is obliged to give way to sail, even when the sailing ship is much smaller.
    - dotancohen 2y ago
      Where do Methalox-powered vehicles lie in this hierarchy? And if the Starship is not under power yet falling and using the flaperons for control, is that considered "under sail" for purposes of right of way?
      - krisoft 2y ago
        For funsies i would call it a “vessel not under command”. At least after the breakup that feels to fit. But for real, i think the simple answer is that debris falling from space is outside of the scope of the ColRegs. Simply speaking they come too fast so you can’t maneuver your vessel out of their way, and unless you are a warship you don’t have the tools to even know where exactly they will hit. If you try to run you might even put yourself in their path. After all from the most unlucky position they would be just bright stationary spots on the sky getting ever so slightly bigger. Until they start to get bigger faster and faster. (Constant bearing and decreasing range being the hallmarks of an impending colision.)
    - krisoft 2y ago
      There is a lovely bit of complication with it! Not saying to correct you, just because i think it is a lovely bit of trivia even though it has nothing to do with space debris. Both sailing and power driven vessels need to give ways to (among other things) “vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver”. And an aircraft carrier launching or recovering aircraft is considered to be restricted in her ability to maneuver (quite rightfully so, it is hard enough to land on them without the ship swerving left and right). So that means that a mighty aircraft carrier needs to (at least according to the regulations) dodge tiny sailing ships, but once they start launching or recovering aircraft it is the responsibility of the sailing ship to avoid them. Source: Rule 18 of the ColRegs (The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea 1972)
  - cdbyr 2y ago
    There is a whole hierarchy of right of way on the water, but a better rule of thumb is that the less maneuverable boat generally has priority. https://www.whoi.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Abbreviated-Guide-To-Navigation-Rules-of-the-Road.pdf https://www.whoi.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Abbreviated-...
    - ta1243 2y ago
      And of course there's the old tale: Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision. Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision. Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course. Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course. Americans: This is the aircraft carrier USS Lincoln, the second largest ship in the United States' Atlantic fleet. We are accompanied by three destroyers, three cruisers and numerous support vessels. I demand that YOU change your course 15 degrees north, that's one five degrees north, or countermeasures will be undertaken to ensure the safety of this ship. Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_urban_legend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighthouse_and_naval_vessel_ur...
delichon 2y ago
Musk said that part of the launch licensing was a requirement to estimate the potential damage to whales in the ocean. He said that the odds turned out to be so low that in his opinion if a whale gets hit it had it coming. https://jabberwocking.com/did-elon-musk-really-have-to-study-whether-his-rockets-might-hit-sharks-and-whales/ https://jabberwocking.com/did-elon-musk-really-have-to-study...
- slippy 2y ago
  If a whale got hit, would the whale be able to file for damages?
  - petesergeant 2y ago
    [flagged]
ceejayoz 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Liability_Convention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Liability_Convention Only used once, when the Soviets dropped a nuclear reactor on Canada. > States (countries) bear international responsibility for all space objects that are launched within their territory. This means that regardless of who launches the space object, if it was launched from State A's territory, or from State A's facility, or if State A caused the launch to happen, then State A is fully liable for damages that result from that space object.
- krick 2y ago
  I feel like it should be updated. When it was written it wasn't like every Musk could launch high-orbit rockets on sundays. Only actual states did.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    States can set whatever rules they like internally. The US can make SpaceX pay them back if they want.
    - dylan604 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        The President has very little case-by-case authority over civil liability between private parties. I suppose Trump could advocate that Congress pass a new liability regime more favorable to SpaceX speciically or private launchers generally, though.
        dylan604 2y ago
        Time and time again, we have seen GOP congress critters kowtow to Trump even before he won the election. You think any of them are going to suddenly grow a backbone and stand up to him now? You think if Musk picks up the phone and starts "asking" people they will push back?
hnburnsy 2y ago
https://www.npr.org/2024/06/23/nx-s1-5016923/space-debris-nasa-florida-home-lawsuit https://www.npr.org/2024/06/23/nx-s1-5016923/space-debris-na...
somenameforme 2y ago
Most things put into space are designed to burn upon uncontrolled descent through orbit. And then the overwhelming majority of Earth is water and even on land the overwhelming majority of land is either completely uninhabited or sparsely inhabited. And then even if against all odds somehow something doesn't burn up in the atmosphere, and somehow lands in a densely populated area - the odds of hitting a spot with somebody or something relevant on it is still quite low. The overall odds of actually hitting somewhere really bad are just astronomically low. Nonetheless, recently NASA won the lottery when part of some batteries they jettisoned from the ISS ended up crashing through a house in Florida. [1] Oddly enough there are treaties on this, but only from an international perspective - landing on your own country was not covered! But I'm certain NASA will obviously make it right, as would SpaceX. If they didn't, then surely the family could easily sue as well. [1] - https://www.space.com/space-debris-florida-family-nasa-lawsuit https://www.space.com/space-debris-florida-family-nasa-lawsu...