8 ms·

This isn’t a random crank we’re talking about. Robert Fisher is widely acknowledge as one of the foremost scientists in the last 100 years. His contributions to

This isn’t a random crank we’re talking about. Robert Fisher is widely acknowledge as one of the foremost scientists in the last 100 years. His contributions to statistics alone would earn him that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fisher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fisher He was wrong about smoking, but the more you read about him the less you’ll believe it had much to do with money. He was used to being right about so many things, and in this area he was blind. The article also throws shade at him as a “eugenicist.” I looked it up, and again, the truth is more complex. He wrote this in the 50s: “I am sorry that there should be propaganda in favour of miscegenation in North America as I am sure it can do nothing but harm. Is it beyond human endeavour to give and justly administer equal rights to all citizens without fooling ourselves that these are equivalent items?” So first — even using the word “miscegenation” puts you in a bad camp, and there’s no defending his attitude against interracial marriage. OTOH he seemed honestly to believe in the “equal rights” part, too. Too much of the old British “white man’s burden” bullshit, I believe.

snakeyjake 2y ago
>The article also throws shade at him as a “eugenicist.” I looked it up, and again, the truth is more complex. You didn't look it up very well. >In 1911, Fisher became founding Chairman of the University of Cambridge Eugenics Society, whose other founding members included John Maynard Keynes, R. C. Punnett, and Horace Darwin. After members of the Cambridge Society – including Fisher – stewarded the First International Eugenics Congress in London in summer 1912, a link was forged with the Eugenics Society (UK).[122] He saw eugenics as addressing pressing social and scientific issues that encompassed and drove his interest in both genetics and statistics. During World War I Fisher started writing book reviews for The Eugenics Review and volunteered to undertake all such reviews for the journal, being hired for a part-time position. I think that if you: 1. are the founding chairman of the University of Cambridge Eugenics Society, 2. stewarded the First International Eugenics Congress in London in summer 1912, 3. saw eugenics as addressing pressing social and scientific issues, and 4. started writing book reviews for The Eugenics Review and volunteered to undertake all such reviews for the journal ..you are a eugenicist. My research consisted of clicking on, and reading, the link you yourself posted.
- bumby 2y ago
  >you are a eugenicist. Is it possible to say “were a eugenicist”? Your info is about him decades before the equal rights quote from the GP. It’s possible he changed his mind over the prevailing four decades (I hope)
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    > It’s possible he changed his mind over the prevailing four decades (I hope) There's far less justification for inventing a conversion out of whole cloth.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Obama and Clinton changed their minds on gay marriage.
      - recursive 2y ago
        Do believe that's evidence that Fisher changed his mind on eugenics? Why do you bring that up?
        SoftTalker 2y ago
        It's evidence that people can hold opinions that while perhaps mainstream at the time, in retrospect decide they are not well founded, and reconsider them. I have no idea about Fisher specifically. I hadn't really heard of him until this was posted. Eugenics was popular among a lot of academics in the early 20th century however.
        recursive 2y ago
        Could be. Maybe it happened! The question here is about whether there is any shred of evidence that it did happen.
        2y ago
gowld 2y ago
Modern connotations of the word "miscegenation aside" aside (the word's denotation means "mixing of races", which is exactly the correct terminology for the issue), and laying aside modern understanding of "race" vs "ethnicity", in Fisher's era racial separatism was considered a solution to racism, not only by White people but also by many leading Black rights activists, such as Malcom X and Muhammad Ali in the Nation of Islam. Ethnonationalism may well be a bad idea in theory or or practice, but it's not purely an oppressor's idea. (It's not obvious that there is any unalloyed good solution to racism and human nature.) https://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/mxp/speeches/mxt14.html https://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/mxp/speeches/mxt14.... https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/06/10/481414008/on-muhammad-alis-complicated-contradictions-and-how-he-changed-boxing https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/06/10/481414008...
- defrost 2y ago
  It was common enough at the time to hold the opinion that "mixing of the races" resulted in offspring that were worse than either race. Frequently expressed across the colonial Commonwealth, Canada to Australia, South Africa and elsewhere. eg Daisy Bates (sometime wife of Breaker Morant) wrote in the state newspaper in regard of Australian Aborigines: Aboriginal civil-rights leader, William Harris, wrote an article in response and said bi-racial Aboriginal people could be of value to Australian society. Bates replied, "as to the half-castes, however early they may be taken and trained, with very few exceptions, the only good half-caste is a dead one." ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_Bates_(author) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_Bates_(author) Miscegenation Laws regarding mixing of races remained in force in Bates part of the world until the 1960s, as did others enforcing the separation of mixed children from their families. It seems less "a solution to racism" and more an excuse to enforce racist ideas aand attitudes.
  - gunian 2y ago
    sometimes I read stuff like this and feel so sad I was born in the 21st century and not in the 31st Pizza delivery hasn't led me to time machines yet :(

snakeyjake 2y ago

>The article also throws shade at him as a “eugenicist.” I looked it up, and again, the truth is more complex. You didn't look it up very well. >In 1911, Fisher became founding Chairman of the University of Cambridge Eugenics Society, whose other founding members included John Maynard Keynes, R. C. Punnett, and Horace Darwin. After members of the Cambridge Society – including Fisher – stewarded the First International Eugenics Congress in London in summer 1912, a link was forged with the Eugenics Society (UK).[122] He saw eugenics as addressing pressing social and scientific issues that encompassed and drove his interest in both genetics and statistics. During World War I Fisher started writing book reviews for The Eugenics Review and volunteered to undertake all such reviews for the journal, being hired for a part-time position. I think that if you: 1. are the founding chairman of the University of Cambridge Eugenics Society, 2. stewarded the First International Eugenics Congress in London in summer 1912, 3. saw eugenics as addressing pressing social and scientific issues, and 4. started writing book reviews for The Eugenics Review and volunteered to undertake all such reviews for the journal ..you are a eugenicist. My research consisted of clicking on, and reading, the link you yourself posted.

bumby 2y ago
>you are a eugenicist. Is it possible to say “were a eugenicist”? Your info is about him decades before the equal rights quote from the GP. It’s possible he changed his mind over the prevailing four decades (I hope)
- pessimizer 2y ago
  > It’s possible he changed his mind over the prevailing four decades (I hope) There's far less justification for inventing a conversion out of whole cloth.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Obama and Clinton changed their minds on gay marriage.
    - recursive 2y ago
      Do believe that's evidence that Fisher changed his mind on eugenics? Why do you bring that up?
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        It's evidence that people can hold opinions that while perhaps mainstream at the time, in retrospect decide they are not well founded, and reconsider them. I have no idea about Fisher specifically. I hadn't really heard of him until this was posted. Eugenics was popular among a lot of academics in the early 20th century however.
        recursive 2y ago
        Could be. Maybe it happened! The question here is about whether there is any shred of evidence that it did happen.
        2y ago

gowld 2y ago

Modern connotations of the word "miscegenation aside" aside (the word's denotation means "mixing of races", which is exactly the correct terminology for the issue), and laying aside modern understanding of "race" vs "ethnicity", in Fisher's era racial separatism was considered a solution to racism, not only by White people but also by many leading Black rights activists, such as Malcom X and Muhammad Ali in the Nation of Islam. Ethnonationalism may well be a bad idea in theory or or practice, but it's not purely an oppressor's idea. (It's not obvious that there is any unalloyed good solution to racism and human nature.) https://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/mxp/speeches/mxt14.html https://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/mmt/mxp/speeches/mxt14.... https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/06/10/481414008/on-muhammad-alis-complicated-contradictions-and-how-he-changed-boxing https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/06/10/481414008...

defrost 2y ago
It was common enough at the time to hold the opinion that "mixing of the races" resulted in offspring that were worse than either race. Frequently expressed across the colonial Commonwealth, Canada to Australia, South Africa and elsewhere. eg Daisy Bates (sometime wife of Breaker Morant) wrote in the state newspaper in regard of Australian Aborigines: Aboriginal civil-rights leader, William Harris, wrote an article in response and said bi-racial Aboriginal people could be of value to Australian society. Bates replied, "as to the half-castes, however early they may be taken and trained, with very few exceptions, the only good half-caste is a dead one." ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_Bates_(author) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_Bates_(author) Miscegenation Laws regarding mixing of races remained in force in Bates part of the world until the 1960s, as did others enforcing the separation of mixed children from their families. It seems less "a solution to racism" and more an excuse to enforce racist ideas aand attitudes.
- gunian 2y ago
  sometimes I read stuff like this and feel so sad I was born in the 21st century and not in the 31st Pizza delivery hasn't led me to time machines yet :(