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Nice article about artifacts that make the past more immediate, that allow us to connect our experiences to people hundreds or thousands of years ago. My favor

Nice article about artifacts that make the past more immediate, that allow us to connect our experiences to people hundreds or thousands of years ago. My favorite example is the writings of Onfim, who was a little boy in the 1200s in present day Russia whose scribbling and homework were exquisitely preserved on birch bark fragments. It’s so immediately recognizable as a little boy’s endearing doodles about knights and imaginary beasts, yet its 800 years old. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onfim https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onfim

morkalork 2y ago
I like the adorable animal shaped sippy cups for babies: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/science/prehistoric-baby-bottles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/science/prehistoric-baby-...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
romanhn 2y ago
Wow, haven't seen this before, thank you. Amazing that the writing can still be read by a modern reader (that said, really helps to know what it's supposed to say though). The note I found most relatable is the one with greetings to his classmate.
- ge96 2y ago
  Do some eyebrows convey emotion or coincidence? (near bottom of page) Edit: I'm also curious how much time (thousands of years) for there to be noticeable difference in the capability of the brain like abstract thinking. Language may be the real problem.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > I'm also curious how much time (thousands of years) for there to be noticeable difference in the capability of the brain like abstract thinking. It's not thousands of years. French Canadians are enriched for some of the same brain-related defects that Ashkenazi Jews can get; we assume for the same reasons.
    - Vampiero 2y ago
      Which defects? What reasons? Who is assuming?
      - thaumasiotes 2y ago
        You know, you can just look these things up. This isn't some piece of obscure trivia. > Which defects? Ashkenazi Jews are prone to a whole host of genetic defects that affect the brain, of which the most famous is Tay-Sachs. > What reasons? A lifestyle focused on commerce as opposed to foraging or agriculture. > Who is assuming? Everyone, basically. In the case of the Ashkenazi Jews, as far as we can tell they've been like that for as long as records of the group have existed. But the French Canadian specialization in commerce postdates the discovery of North America.
    - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
      Uhhhh what?
methyl 2y ago
I’ve had similar feeling when realizing that the bells that we sometimes hear in old cities of Europe are exact same bells producing exact same sound as 1000 years ago
zehaeva 2y ago
Similarly, when I read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius I was struck by how normal everything seemed. While he was an Emperor the everyday banality of what he talked about going through 2,000 years ago was amazing. Humans really haven't changed that much at all.
- thesz 2y ago
  > Humans really haven't changed that much at all. I guess you are quoting Woland from The Master and Margarita [1], the words he said in a show at the Variety theater. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita Woland is the Satan in the novel. What he said has a deeper meaning, but superficial one is most probably wrong.
  - willy_k 2y ago
    I think they’re just saying that humans haven’t really changed much at all, if I had to guess they weren’t referencing any one quote. The only thing that’s really changed is the tools we can use, but we’ve made little (some would say backwards compared to certain reference points) progress in why and what we use them for.
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    I don't know that OP was quoting a Russian satire but I'm glad you turned me onto the book, I never would have heard of it but sounds intriguing. There's a wealth of covers to choose from on eBay, Goodreads lists over 1,200 editions. I got the one with the cat holding the playing cards smoking a cigar while a topless woman sails past the moon on a flying pig. at least I think it's a pig. Published in '97 by Picador.
    - voihannena 2y ago
      It's such a great book, both hilarious and sad at times. I also went to eBay to search for a copy before realizing I already own the book.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
I like the extreme modesty in the wikipedia article: > One of the drawings features a knight on a horse, with Onfim's name written next to him, stabbing someone on the ground with a lance, with scholars speculating that Onfim pictured himself as the knight.
edgarvaldes 2y ago
Not as old, but I loved reading about this: 350 year old paper cuttings found under Sutton House floorboards go on display [0] It really feels immediate [0] https://museumsandheritage.com/advisor/posts/350-year-old-paper-cuttings-found-under-sutton-house-floorboards-go-on-display/ https://museumsandheritage.com/advisor/posts/350-year-old-pa...
gunian 2y ago
Kids had school 800 years ago? If he didn't work in the fields musta been rich insert David Lynch quote about red ants
- bearded_comrade 2y ago
  It seems like that region had a particularly high literacy rate. Texts from all classes and genders were found. The kid could have been a peasant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic#Literature_and_literacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic#Literature_a...
  - gunian 2y ago
    How likely is that vs works written by the rich folk survive? A cursory GPT search implies not a lot of medieval works written by poor people in general
    - int_19h 2y ago
      The point is that it's not your average medieval polity. Novgorod was a merchant republic in which literacy was seemingly held in high esteem in and of itself, resulting in a social pressure to acquire it. And then on top of that they had access to plenty of birch bark, which happens to be a very convenient and cheap writing material where it's available, and does not require any ink or fancy tools to use; just a sharp stylus. As far as survival, because of how common birch bark notes were in Novgorod, they were used for mundane everyday matters like instructions to servants to purchase such and such goods, or even just a one-liner greeting, and a lot of those were then discarded and ended up buried underground. So, again, a very different slice compared to the more typical story of expensive manuscripts in libraries, or personal correspondence of nobility.
      - gunian 2y ago
        It would be cool to study if the social pressure was applicable to servants or just the elite ruling class Do you have any idea where to get photos of collections?
internet_points 2y ago
Or the rune-rods which were "the medieval snapchat" https://www.nrk.no/vestland/gamle_-norske-ord-for-kjonnsorgan-funnet-pa-runepinne-pa-bryggen-i-bergen-1.16983695 https://www.nrk.no/vestland/gamle_-norske-ord-for-kjonnsorga... (google translate isn't half bad on this article) or a more PG version https://sprakprat.no/2017/06/22/middelalderkvinner-og-runekunnskap/ https://sprakprat.no/2017/06/22/middelalderkvinner-og-runeku... where a rune-rod simply says "Gyda says you have to come home" (I guess hubby had been out too late with his no-good friends?)
sriacha 2y ago
Wonderful, here's another similar example I saw recently, 14000 year old cave art doodling by kids: https://www.science.org/content/article/enigmatic-cave-art-was-made-ice-age-children https://www.science.org/content/article/enigmatic-cave-art-w...

morkalork 2y ago

I like the adorable animal shaped sippy cups for babies: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/science/prehistoric-baby-bottles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/science/prehistoric-baby-...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

romanhn 2y ago

Wow, haven't seen this before, thank you. Amazing that the writing can still be read by a modern reader (that said, really helps to know what it's supposed to say though). The note I found most relatable is the one with greetings to his classmate.

ge96 2y ago
Do some eyebrows convey emotion or coincidence? (near bottom of page) Edit: I'm also curious how much time (thousands of years) for there to be noticeable difference in the capability of the brain like abstract thinking. Language may be the real problem.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > I'm also curious how much time (thousands of years) for there to be noticeable difference in the capability of the brain like abstract thinking. It's not thousands of years. French Canadians are enriched for some of the same brain-related defects that Ashkenazi Jews can get; we assume for the same reasons.
  - Vampiero 2y ago
    Which defects? What reasons? Who is assuming?
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      You know, you can just look these things up. This isn't some piece of obscure trivia. > Which defects? Ashkenazi Jews are prone to a whole host of genetic defects that affect the brain, of which the most famous is Tay-Sachs. > What reasons? A lifestyle focused on commerce as opposed to foraging or agriculture. > Who is assuming? Everyone, basically. In the case of the Ashkenazi Jews, as far as we can tell they've been like that for as long as records of the group have existed. But the French Canadian specialization in commerce postdates the discovery of North America.
  - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
    Uhhhh what?

methyl 2y ago

I’ve had similar feeling when realizing that the bells that we sometimes hear in old cities of Europe are exact same bells producing exact same sound as 1000 years ago

zehaeva 2y ago

Similarly, when I read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius I was struck by how normal everything seemed. While he was an Emperor the everyday banality of what he talked about going through 2,000 years ago was amazing. Humans really haven't changed that much at all.

thesz 2y ago
> Humans really haven't changed that much at all. I guess you are quoting Woland from The Master and Margarita [1], the words he said in a show at the Variety theater. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita Woland is the Satan in the novel. What he said has a deeper meaning, but superficial one is most probably wrong.
- willy_k 2y ago
  I think they’re just saying that humans haven’t really changed much at all, if I had to guess they weren’t referencing any one quote. The only thing that’s really changed is the tools we can use, but we’ve made little (some would say backwards compared to certain reference points) progress in why and what we use them for.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I don't know that OP was quoting a Russian satire but I'm glad you turned me onto the book, I never would have heard of it but sounds intriguing. There's a wealth of covers to choose from on eBay, Goodreads lists over 1,200 editions. I got the one with the cat holding the playing cards smoking a cigar while a topless woman sails past the moon on a flying pig. at least I think it's a pig. Published in '97 by Picador.
  - voihannena 2y ago
    It's such a great book, both hilarious and sad at times. I also went to eBay to search for a copy before realizing I already own the book.

thaumasiotes 2y ago

I like the extreme modesty in the wikipedia article: > One of the drawings features a knight on a horse, with Onfim's name written next to him, stabbing someone on the ground with a lance, with scholars speculating that Onfim pictured himself as the knight.

edgarvaldes 2y ago

Not as old, but I loved reading about this: 350 year old paper cuttings found under Sutton House floorboards go on display [0] It really feels immediate [0] https://museumsandheritage.com/advisor/posts/350-year-old-paper-cuttings-found-under-sutton-house-floorboards-go-on-display/ https://museumsandheritage.com/advisor/posts/350-year-old-pa...

gunian 2y ago

Kids had school 800 years ago? If he didn't work in the fields musta been rich insert David Lynch quote about red ants

bearded_comrade 2y ago
It seems like that region had a particularly high literacy rate. Texts from all classes and genders were found. The kid could have been a peasant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic#Literature_and_literacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic#Literature_a...
- gunian 2y ago
  How likely is that vs works written by the rich folk survive? A cursory GPT search implies not a lot of medieval works written by poor people in general
  - int_19h 2y ago
    The point is that it's not your average medieval polity. Novgorod was a merchant republic in which literacy was seemingly held in high esteem in and of itself, resulting in a social pressure to acquire it. And then on top of that they had access to plenty of birch bark, which happens to be a very convenient and cheap writing material where it's available, and does not require any ink or fancy tools to use; just a sharp stylus. As far as survival, because of how common birch bark notes were in Novgorod, they were used for mundane everyday matters like instructions to servants to purchase such and such goods, or even just a one-liner greeting, and a lot of those were then discarded and ended up buried underground. So, again, a very different slice compared to the more typical story of expensive manuscripts in libraries, or personal correspondence of nobility.
    - gunian 2y ago
      It would be cool to study if the social pressure was applicable to servants or just the elite ruling class Do you have any idea where to get photos of collections?

internet_points 2y ago

Or the rune-rods which were "the medieval snapchat" https://www.nrk.no/vestland/gamle_-norske-ord-for-kjonnsorgan-funnet-pa-runepinne-pa-bryggen-i-bergen-1.16983695 https://www.nrk.no/vestland/gamle_-norske-ord-for-kjonnsorga... (google translate isn't half bad on this article) or a more PG version https://sprakprat.no/2017/06/22/middelalderkvinner-og-runekunnskap/ https://sprakprat.no/2017/06/22/middelalderkvinner-og-runeku... where a rune-rod simply says "Gyda says you have to come home" (I guess hubby had been out too late with his no-good friends?)

sriacha 2y ago

Wonderful, here's another similar example I saw recently, 14000 year old cave art doodling by kids: https://www.science.org/content/article/enigmatic-cave-art-was-made-ice-age-children https://www.science.org/content/article/enigmatic-cave-art-w...