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While thinking of making a game I’ve found these helpful: 1. The Art of Game Design, A Book of Lenses by Jesse Schell - https://schellgames.com/art-of-game-des

While thinking of making a game I’ve found these helpful: 1. The Art of Game Design, A Book of Lenses by Jesse Schell - https://schellgames.com/art-of-game-design https://schellgames.com/art-of-game-design 2. 20 Tips on Making Games by Jordan Mechner - https://www.jordanmechner.com/downloads/library/20tips.pdf https://www.jordanmechner.com/downloads/library/20tips.pdf 3. Liz England’s blog - https://lizengland.com/blog/ https://lizengland.com/blog/

ghostzilla 2y ago
Jesse Schell's book is a great read beyond game design. Thanks for the other links. To leave something in return, here's something I read the other day and kept thinking about it (I'm designing on a PvP motion based game) "In competitive games, there is little more valuable than knowing the mind of the opponent, which the Japanese call “yomi.” As a side note, I would even argue that the “strategic depth” of a game should be defined almost entirely on its ability to support and reward yomi." The Yomi Layer concept is a reminder that moves need to have counters. If you know what the opponent will do, you should generally have some way of dealing with that. https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind
- snapcaster 2y ago
  I have tons of friends that took his classes at CMU, as much as everything he says sounds good I don't know a single person that has ever enjoyed a game he made. Because of that, I have to assume what he says is either fluff or wrong even if i can't perceive why exactly
  - daseiner1 2y ago
    Obviously you’d be a better judge than I am given your inside knowledge, but your comment reminds me of the many virtuoso musicians who don’t really make music people like. There’s a gap between technical ability and taste, artfulness.
    - snapcaster 2y ago
      It's not that he's making games too avant garde or something that might be going over my head. His company just makes corporate slop, not a single enjoyable game amongst them
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    I feel a great deal of the games Schell produces are for clients (like ports) or serve as a more in-depth proof of concept. I think the client work pays the bills though, looking at their catalog.
    - snapcaster 2y ago
      Yep, but that's a totally separate thing from making good games
      - dowager_dan99 2y ago
        Usually but not always. There have been some great corporate projects, but it does feel like they are less common now than say 10+ years ago, and typically neat twists on existing successes vs. unique ideas
  - ghostzilla 2y ago
    That's interesting, it hasn't occurred to me to check his games. That said, I remember reading that Machiaveli was once given a territory to govern and he was terrible at it, despite The Prince. It may be a thing about teachers vs doers. THAT said, there is a lot of intersting things one can learn from John Carmack, so there's an exception to every rule.
    - snapcaster 2y ago
      >That said, I remember reading that Machiaveli was once given a territory to govern and he was terrible at it, despite The Prince. this is a great articulation of what i'm trying to say thanks
snapcaster 2y ago
Discourage reading Jesse Schell if you want to make _good_ games instead of corporate slop. He's never made a game you like or anyone you know likes. Agreed everything he says sounds great but then why hasn't he made any good games?
- Vermeulen 2y ago
  I Expect You To Die, Among Us VR, Until You Fall. All good stuff
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    You're the first person I've ever interacted with that has personally enjoyed one of his games! Your comment is forcing me to slightly update my beliefs thanks. how many hours have you played them?
- diggan 2y ago
  > Agreed everything he says sounds great but then why hasn't he made any good games? Quick browse of the portfolio on that website (https://schellgames.com/portfolio https://schellgames.com/portfolio) seems to show multiple games that has won awards. All their original games seems to have "Mostly Positive" or above on Steam as well. What metric are you judging this developer by? I can't say I've played/seen any of those games myself, but clearly they seem to be putting out some games that people play and enjoy.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    The fact that i'm a huge gamer, and have a huge friend group of them but nobody plays his games. It's just crazy to me this guy gets a shout out by hordes of people that don't play them. I doubt anyone upthread recommending his book plays any of them regularly
    - no_wizard 2y ago
      The titles skew non 'gamer gamer' toward casual gaming though. Like some of these titles I could see being great on phones, for example. I don't know their internal metrics by any means, but none of these games look 'hardcore', they all seem casual

ghostzilla 2y ago

Jesse Schell's book is a great read beyond game design. Thanks for the other links. To leave something in return, here's something I read the other day and kept thinking about it (I'm designing on a PvP motion based game) "In competitive games, there is little more valuable than knowing the mind of the opponent, which the Japanese call “yomi.” As a side note, I would even argue that the “strategic depth” of a game should be defined almost entirely on its ability to support and reward yomi." The Yomi Layer concept is a reminder that moves need to have counters. If you know what the opponent will do, you should generally have some way of dealing with that. https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind

snapcaster 2y ago
I have tons of friends that took his classes at CMU, as much as everything he says sounds good I don't know a single person that has ever enjoyed a game he made. Because of that, I have to assume what he says is either fluff or wrong even if i can't perceive why exactly
- daseiner1 2y ago
  Obviously you’d be a better judge than I am given your inside knowledge, but your comment reminds me of the many virtuoso musicians who don’t really make music people like. There’s a gap between technical ability and taste, artfulness.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    It's not that he's making games too avant garde or something that might be going over my head. His company just makes corporate slop, not a single enjoyable game amongst them
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I feel a great deal of the games Schell produces are for clients (like ports) or serve as a more in-depth proof of concept. I think the client work pays the bills though, looking at their catalog.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    Yep, but that's a totally separate thing from making good games
    - dowager_dan99 2y ago
      Usually but not always. There have been some great corporate projects, but it does feel like they are less common now than say 10+ years ago, and typically neat twists on existing successes vs. unique ideas
- ghostzilla 2y ago
  That's interesting, it hasn't occurred to me to check his games. That said, I remember reading that Machiaveli was once given a territory to govern and he was terrible at it, despite The Prince. It may be a thing about teachers vs doers. THAT said, there is a lot of intersting things one can learn from John Carmack, so there's an exception to every rule.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    >That said, I remember reading that Machiaveli was once given a territory to govern and he was terrible at it, despite The Prince. this is a great articulation of what i'm trying to say thanks

snapcaster 2y ago

Discourage reading Jesse Schell if you want to make _good_ games instead of corporate slop. He's never made a game you like or anyone you know likes. Agreed everything he says sounds great but then why hasn't he made any good games?

Vermeulen 2y ago
I Expect You To Die, Among Us VR, Until You Fall. All good stuff
- snapcaster 2y ago
  You're the first person I've ever interacted with that has personally enjoyed one of his games! Your comment is forcing me to slightly update my beliefs thanks. how many hours have you played them?
diggan 2y ago
> Agreed everything he says sounds great but then why hasn't he made any good games? Quick browse of the portfolio on that website (https://schellgames.com/portfolio https://schellgames.com/portfolio) seems to show multiple games that has won awards. All their original games seems to have "Mostly Positive" or above on Steam as well. What metric are you judging this developer by? I can't say I've played/seen any of those games myself, but clearly they seem to be putting out some games that people play and enjoy.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  The fact that i'm a huge gamer, and have a huge friend group of them but nobody plays his games. It's just crazy to me this guy gets a shout out by hordes of people that don't play them. I doubt anyone upthread recommending his book plays any of them regularly
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    The titles skew non 'gamer gamer' toward casual gaming though. Like some of these titles I could see being great on phones, for example. I don't know their internal metrics by any means, but none of these games look 'hardcore', they all seem casual