3 ms·

> Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional Well close, they are a violation if that is the intended goal of the attack, they are not necessarily

> Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional Well close, they are a violation if that is the intended goal of the attack, they are not necessarily a violation if they were done intentionally as part of an attack against a military target and the porportional military gain outweighs the expected civilian damage (this is a bit of an oversimplification) > There is an abundance of evidence, I think this overstates things. There is definite evidence that civilians have died. Whether there is evidence that those deaths were the illegal under the rules of war is much more ambigious. There is probably evidence for some isolated incidents, i'm not sure i agree there is strong (i.e. sufficient for a conviction) of widespread illegal civilian death. I'm not saying it for sure didn't happen, just that the publicly available evidence is mixed and often requires making unverified assumptions. (Truth is the first casualty of war)

GordonS 2y ago
Isolated incidents?! We've seen daily war crimes just on social media for the past year! The Hind Rajab foundation alone* has found clear evidence of war crimes committed by over one thousand individuals - that's just the ones that were stupid enough to post blatant war crimes on Facebook/Instagram and have been identified! The process to identify many, many more is ongoing. Come on now, there is a wealth of evidence of institutionalised war crimes, and you know it. * BTW, the Hind Rajab foundation was setup after Israel deliberately targeted and killed a 5-year old girl (along with family members, and even paramedics who tried to help).
- bawolff 2y ago
  For any cases where there is solid evidence, i hope the perpetrators face appropriate justice. However the Hind Rajab foundation isn't exactly a neutral party here. There is nothing wrong with that, its important to have non-neutral parties to push justisce forward. However i would view them the same way i might view a persecutor in a normal court case - they are trying to prove the guy did it, but i'm not convinced until some sort of more neutral party weighs in (ideally a judge during a trial, but failing that even more neutral academics/civil society groups)
  - kombine 2y ago
    > For any cases where there is solid evidence, i hope the perpetrators face appropriate justice. Yeah, you are trying to make it sound as if these are isolated incidents. There is plenty of evidence that this was a systematic campaign of extermination, this is why the ICC is seeking arrests for Israel's leadership.
    - bawolff 2y ago
      To quote the ICC press release: "On the basis of material presented by the Prosecution covering the period until 20 May 2024, the Chamber could not determine that all elements of the crime against humanity of extermination were met" https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-rejects-state-israels-challenges https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
- Qem 2y ago
  > * BTW, the Hind Rajab foundation was setup after Israel deliberately targeted and killed a 5-year old girl (along with family members, and even paramedics who tried to help). Forensic Architecture published a detailed report on this heartbreaking case: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-of-hind-rajab https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-... Unfortunately that was not an isolated case. It was systematic policy. The ICC staff has a lot of work in their hands.

GordonS 2y ago

Isolated incidents?! We've seen daily war crimes just on social media for the past year! The Hind Rajab foundation alone* has found clear evidence of war crimes committed by over one thousand individuals - that's just the ones that were stupid enough to post blatant war crimes on Facebook/Instagram and have been identified! The process to identify many, many more is ongoing. Come on now, there is a wealth of evidence of institutionalised war crimes, and you know it. * BTW, the Hind Rajab foundation was setup after Israel deliberately targeted and killed a 5-year old girl (along with family members, and even paramedics who tried to help).

bawolff 2y ago
For any cases where there is solid evidence, i hope the perpetrators face appropriate justice. However the Hind Rajab foundation isn't exactly a neutral party here. There is nothing wrong with that, its important to have non-neutral parties to push justisce forward. However i would view them the same way i might view a persecutor in a normal court case - they are trying to prove the guy did it, but i'm not convinced until some sort of more neutral party weighs in (ideally a judge during a trial, but failing that even more neutral academics/civil society groups)
- kombine 2y ago
  > For any cases where there is solid evidence, i hope the perpetrators face appropriate justice. Yeah, you are trying to make it sound as if these are isolated incidents. There is plenty of evidence that this was a systematic campaign of extermination, this is why the ICC is seeking arrests for Israel's leadership.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    To quote the ICC press release: "On the basis of material presented by the Prosecution covering the period until 20 May 2024, the Chamber could not determine that all elements of the crime against humanity of extermination were met" https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-pre-trial-chamber-i-rejects-state-israels-challenges https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/situation-state-palestine-icc-p...
Qem 2y ago
> * BTW, the Hind Rajab foundation was setup after Israel deliberately targeted and killed a 5-year old girl (along with family members, and even paramedics who tried to help). Forensic Architecture published a detailed report on this heartbreaking case: https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-of-hind-rajab https://forensic-architecture.org/investigation/the-killing-... Unfortunately that was not an isolated case. It was systematic policy. The ICC staff has a lot of work in their hands.