3 ms·

This is just such a toxic thread. What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas? There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in an

This is just such a toxic thread. What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas? There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.

KikoHeit 2y ago
[flagged]
- dan_pollow 2y ago
  [flagged]
bawolff 2y ago
Civilians who die during war rarely have any responsibility for the things their leader do. What say did the average russian citizen have in putin's choice to invade Ukraine? And yet we are largely ok with ukraine bombing russia, killing some of those civilians in the process. That is the way of war. I believe we should focus on things that are violations of the rules of war, not civilian death in its entirety. Otherwise we are just saying war is evil, as innocents have died in pretty much every war. A true point perhaps but kind of useless. It also raises the question of what one should do when confronted with war? Just roll over and die. It has been alleged that Israel has violated rules of war. If true and backed up by evidence, it should be condemed for such violation. But civilian deaths are not a violation of the rules of war. They can be under certain circumstances, but they aren't in and of themselves.
- GordonS 2y ago
  Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional - and Israel has repeatedly, deliberately targeted civilians, including children. There is an abundance of evidence, and yes you are right that they should be condemned - except Israel and their stooges always cry "antisemitism!", before going straight back to more war crimes and genocide. Not to mention how Israel has destroyed nearly every (or every, now?) hospital in Gaza to prevent civilians from being treated. Or how Israel haa prevented aid from entering Gaza. Or how bulldozer drivers drive over hundreds of Palestinians, dead and alive. Or... gods, there is so much more, Israel is a deeply sick society.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    > Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional Well close, they are a violation if that is the intended goal of the attack, they are not necessarily a violation if they were done intentionally as part of an attack against a military target and the porportional military gain outweighs the expected civilian damage (this is a bit of an oversimplification) > There is an abundance of evidence, I think this overstates things. There is definite evidence that civilians have died. Whether there is evidence that those deaths were the illegal under the rules of war is much more ambigious. There is probably evidence for some isolated incidents, i'm not sure i agree there is strong (i.e. sufficient for a conviction) of widespread illegal civilian death. I'm not saying it for sure didn't happen, just that the publicly available evidence is mixed and often requires making unverified assumptions. (Truth is the first casualty of war)
    - GordonS 2y ago
      Isolated incidents?! We've seen daily war crimes just on social media for the past year! The Hind Rajab foundation alone* has found clear evidence of war crimes committed by over one thousand individuals - that's just the ones that were stupid enough to post blatant war crimes on Facebook/Instagram and have been identified! The process to identify many, many more is ongoing. Come on now, there is a wealth of evidence of institutionalised war crimes, and you know it. * BTW, the Hind Rajab foundation was setup after Israel deliberately targeted and killed a 5-year old girl (along with family members, and even paramedics who tried to help).
      - bawolff 2y ago
        For any cases where there is solid evidence, i hope the perpetrators face appropriate justice. However the Hind Rajab foundation isn't exactly a neutral party here. There is nothing wrong with that, its important to have non-neutral parties to push justisce forward. However i would view them the same way i might view a persecutor in a normal court case - they are trying to prove the guy did it, but i'm not convinced until some sort of more neutral party weighs in (ideally a judge during a trial, but failing that even more neutral academics/civil society groups)
bushbaba 2y ago
What say did the Yemenite civilians have in the Saudi lead aggression. What say did the Syrian civilians have in the civil war. What say did the Iraqi civilians have in the U.S. lead war. What say did the Ukrainian and Russian civilians have in their war. Your remark comes off as there should never be a war again period. The Palestinian people voted Hamas in AND were polled in majority support. Beyond Hamas the general Palestinian civilians also had those helping Hamas, supporting Hamas, and over 60-80% viewings Hamas’s actions as just.
m000 2y ago
> There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here. At this point, would we be surprised if this thread turned out to be part of an OSINT campaign?

This is just such a toxic thread. What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas? There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.

KikoHeit 2y ago

[flagged]

dan_pollow 2y ago
[flagged]

bawolff 2y ago

Civilians who die during war rarely have any responsibility for the things their leader do. What say did the average russian citizen have in putin's choice to invade Ukraine? And yet we are largely ok with ukraine bombing russia, killing some of those civilians in the process. That is the way of war. I believe we should focus on things that are violations of the rules of war, not civilian death in its entirety. Otherwise we are just saying war is evil, as innocents have died in pretty much every war. A true point perhaps but kind of useless. It also raises the question of what one should do when confronted with war? Just roll over and die. It has been alleged that Israel has violated rules of war. If true and backed up by evidence, it should be condemed for such violation. But civilian deaths are not a violation of the rules of war. They can be under certain circumstances, but they aren't in and of themselves.

GordonS 2y ago
Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional - and Israel has repeatedly, deliberately targeted civilians, including children. There is an abundance of evidence, and yes you are right that they should be condemned - except Israel and their stooges always cry "antisemitism!", before going straight back to more war crimes and genocide. Not to mention how Israel has destroyed nearly every (or every, now?) hospital in Gaza to prevent civilians from being treated. Or how Israel haa prevented aid from entering Gaza. Or how bulldozer drivers drive over hundreds of Palestinians, dead and alive. Or... gods, there is so much more, Israel is a deeply sick society.
- bawolff 2y ago
  > Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional Well close, they are a violation if that is the intended goal of the attack, they are not necessarily a violation if they were done intentionally as part of an attack against a military target and the porportional military gain outweighs the expected civilian damage (this is a bit of an oversimplification) > There is an abundance of evidence, I think this overstates things. There is definite evidence that civilians have died. Whether there is evidence that those deaths were the illegal under the rules of war is much more ambigious. There is probably evidence for some isolated incidents, i'm not sure i agree there is strong (i.e. sufficient for a conviction) of widespread illegal civilian death. I'm not saying it for sure didn't happen, just that the publicly available evidence is mixed and often requires making unverified assumptions. (Truth is the first casualty of war)
  - GordonS 2y ago
    Isolated incidents?! We've seen daily war crimes just on social media for the past year! The Hind Rajab foundation alone* has found clear evidence of war crimes committed by over one thousand individuals - that's just the ones that were stupid enough to post blatant war crimes on Facebook/Instagram and have been identified! The process to identify many, many more is ongoing. Come on now, there is a wealth of evidence of institutionalised war crimes, and you know it. * BTW, the Hind Rajab foundation was setup after Israel deliberately targeted and killed a 5-year old girl (along with family members, and even paramedics who tried to help).
    - bawolff 2y ago
      For any cases where there is solid evidence, i hope the perpetrators face appropriate justice. However the Hind Rajab foundation isn't exactly a neutral party here. There is nothing wrong with that, its important to have non-neutral parties to push justisce forward. However i would view them the same way i might view a persecutor in a normal court case - they are trying to prove the guy did it, but i'm not convinced until some sort of more neutral party weighs in (ideally a judge during a trial, but failing that even more neutral academics/civil society groups)

bushbaba 2y ago

What say did the Yemenite civilians have in the Saudi lead aggression. What say did the Syrian civilians have in the civil war. What say did the Iraqi civilians have in the U.S. lead war. What say did the Ukrainian and Russian civilians have in their war. Your remark comes off as there should never be a war again period. The Palestinian people voted Hamas in AND were polled in majority support. Beyond Hamas the general Palestinian civilians also had those helping Hamas, supporting Hamas, and over 60-80% viewings Hamas’s actions as just.

m000 2y ago

> There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here. At this point, would we be surprised if this thread turned out to be part of an OSINT campaign?