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> How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keeping hostages is a war crime. A fair thing would be for Hamas to follow its obligations under inte

> How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keeping hostages is a war crime. A fair thing would be for Hamas to follow its obligations under international law and unconditionally release them (before anyone says, well israel did X which also isn't allowed, 2 wrongs don't make a right). > more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii How are you quantifying this? I'd be surprised if Gaza has more damage than say Dresden.

lostlogin 2y ago
Dresden is a darkly funny choice for comparison. Area bombing definitely wasn't a war crime and Arthur Harris was not a war criminal.
- bawolff 2y ago
  Regardless of the circumstances of the bombing, if the question is - did there exist any cities in europe that were more damaged in WW2 than gaza was in the current conflict, isn't it natural to compare gaza with the most famously damaged european city in WW2? Like what comparison would you expect to be made in relation to that question?
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    Dresden was levelled and does make your point. I’d have picked Warsaw. Completely destroyed while clearing out the ghetto after the uprising which was brutally suppressed. It has some grim parallels too.
    - hedora 2y ago
      Dresden: 23% of industrial buildings, 50% of homes, 25,000 dead: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 Warsaw was closer, but only 85-90% of its buildings were destroyed by the Nazis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw The statistic I heard was “more than any city in wwii”. I figured that Hiroshima (67%) years or Nagasaki (37%) were worse. Gaza crossed 90% of all buildings in May, so I shouldn’t have qualified my statement with the word “European”. Edit: I found one partial counterexample: The firebombing of Tokyo killed about 10x more people than Israel did during this conflict, but didn’t do nearly as much damage (as a percentage) to buildings: https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo
seventhtiger 2y ago
Israel's prisons are full of Palestinian hostages kidnapped from Gaza and the West Bank. Their courts have no jurisdiction over them and have no issue calling anyone a terrorist.
- bawolff 2y ago
  A hostage and a prisoner is not the same thing under international law. > Their courts have no jurisdiction over them Israel is the occupying power. International law requires that an occupying power provide law & order, so it does have the authority to persecute people who commit crimes (although they are required to keep the laws the same as they were pre-occupation, with some exceptions). They are also allowed to keep prisoners of war (although i am not sure if hamas counts as that as they are a non-state group). They are allowed to persecute war crimes that enemy combatants commit (as long as they give a fair trial) > have no issue calling anyone a terrorist. The phrase "terrorist" doesn't really have much meaning under international law. Israel is free to call its enemies dirty names if it wants, there isn't any rule against calling your enemies mean names.
  - seventhtiger 2y ago
    The phrase terrorist is the pretense Israel uses to kidnap Palestinian children and use them as hostages. Over 800 last year. It's highly relevant. Israel's courts rubberstamp some of the hostage taking, while the rest are on administrative detention without charge or trial. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231120-880-palestinian-children-detained-by-israel-this-year-ngo/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231120-880-palestinian-c...
    - bawolff 2y ago
      While i abhor the practise of long-term administrative detention as being fundamentally unjust, i don't think it would meet the definition of taking hostages under the geneva convention.
      - kombine 2y ago
hedora 2y ago
Having both sides obey their obligations under international law would be a good first step. Maybe Israel could start by turning over everyone subject to an outstanding International Criminal Court warrant. (Starting with Netanyahu, of course.)

lostlogin 2y ago

Dresden is a darkly funny choice for comparison. Area bombing definitely wasn't a war crime and Arthur Harris was not a war criminal.

bawolff 2y ago
Regardless of the circumstances of the bombing, if the question is - did there exist any cities in europe that were more damaged in WW2 than gaza was in the current conflict, isn't it natural to compare gaza with the most famously damaged european city in WW2? Like what comparison would you expect to be made in relation to that question?
- lostlogin 2y ago
  Dresden was levelled and does make your point. I’d have picked Warsaw. Completely destroyed while clearing out the ghetto after the uprising which was brutally suppressed. It has some grim parallels too.
  - hedora 2y ago
    Dresden: 23% of industrial buildings, 50% of homes, 25,000 dead: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 Warsaw was closer, but only 85-90% of its buildings were destroyed by the Nazis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw The statistic I heard was “more than any city in wwii”. I figured that Hiroshima (67%) years or Nagasaki (37%) were worse. Gaza crossed 90% of all buildings in May, so I shouldn’t have qualified my statement with the word “European”. Edit: I found one partial counterexample: The firebombing of Tokyo killed about 10x more people than Israel did during this conflict, but didn’t do nearly as much damage (as a percentage) to buildings: https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo

seventhtiger 2y ago

Israel's prisons are full of Palestinian hostages kidnapped from Gaza and the West Bank. Their courts have no jurisdiction over them and have no issue calling anyone a terrorist.

bawolff 2y ago
A hostage and a prisoner is not the same thing under international law. > Their courts have no jurisdiction over them Israel is the occupying power. International law requires that an occupying power provide law & order, so it does have the authority to persecute people who commit crimes (although they are required to keep the laws the same as they were pre-occupation, with some exceptions). They are also allowed to keep prisoners of war (although i am not sure if hamas counts as that as they are a non-state group). They are allowed to persecute war crimes that enemy combatants commit (as long as they give a fair trial) > have no issue calling anyone a terrorist. The phrase "terrorist" doesn't really have much meaning under international law. Israel is free to call its enemies dirty names if it wants, there isn't any rule against calling your enemies mean names.
- seventhtiger 2y ago
  The phrase terrorist is the pretense Israel uses to kidnap Palestinian children and use them as hostages. Over 800 last year. It's highly relevant. Israel's courts rubberstamp some of the hostage taking, while the rest are on administrative detention without charge or trial. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231120-880-palestinian-children-detained-by-israel-this-year-ngo/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231120-880-palestinian-c...
  - bawolff 2y ago
    While i abhor the practise of long-term administrative detention as being fundamentally unjust, i don't think it would meet the definition of taking hostages under the geneva convention.
    - kombine 2y ago

hedora 2y ago

Having both sides obey their obligations under international law would be a good first step. Maybe Israel could start by turning over everyone subject to an outstanding International Criminal Court warrant. (Starting with Netanyahu, of course.)