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Okay, as a non-entrepreneur, just a lowly programmer type, my great stumbling block is negotiating pay. I kind of suck at negotiation and don't really know what

Okay, as a non-entrepreneur, just a lowly programmer type, my great stumbling block is negotiating pay. I kind of suck at negotiation and don't really know what my skills are worth. I don't want to be a millionaire, Donald Trump type character. I want to be able to do interesting things and have enough money coming in so I can live somewhere nice and build a life with a partner if I'm lucky enough to end up finding one. It certainly doesn't feel like I'm worth the sort of money people seem willing to pay me. It's only made worse in situations where it's a less formal work environment: when it's a startup or a startup-like atmosphere, working for people you know socially rather than just professionally, where it feels like you are pushing for higher pay against them or whatever. Some people seem to be full of confidence and/or bullshit to the point where they can walk in and put an eye-wateringly large consulting fee or salary on the table and not blink. And the stupid thing is I realise I suck at this, and sort of excuse it on the basis that I'm here to churn you out Java or Ruby or whatever. I did read that one of the things that holds women back in the workplace specifically is lack of negotiation skills over salaries and raises. Any geek-friendly tips on fixing a slightly fear or reluctance to negotiate frankly over this stuff? When I speak to others, they seem to grok how to do it just as easily as I grok reading a stack trace, say.

astine 14y ago
Dude, it's actually rather simple. Value is subjective. You are worth whatever people are willing to give you. If an employer or client is willing to pay you $80k to watch Youtube videos all day then you watching Youtube videos all day is worth that to him. What you need to do is not measure your worth in how hard you feel that you are working or how rare you feel that your knowledge is. You are probably a very poor judge of that anyway. You should try to measure it in terms of how much value you create for an employer. That's also hard to measure, but it's much closer to what you can legitimately ask for. Look at it like this: If you write a program that saves a boss an hour of work every day, and that boss makes $250k a year, that program is worth about $31,250 a year, even if it only took you three minutes to write it. If that same program saves dozens of people an hour of work every day, it's worth even more. If you write a program that does the work of three accountants, you are worth, three accountants. As a programmer, you probably produce a lot more value than you think you do. Just keep that in mind next time you're at the bargaining table.
seagreen 14y ago
The following is just an inexperienced guess, so feel free to ignore it and seek other counsel, but . . . I think the most important thing is to realize that negotiating pay takes a totally different mindset from programming. When programming you're trying to be creative and cooperative. When negotiating pay you should have a competitive mindset. Your employer is to some extent your opponent and you're playing poker with him. The thing is -- that's OK (or at least it should be). If a potential employer is making it feel like you're pushing against him personally when you ask for higher pay he's being the jerk, not you (this is of course situational -- things might be different if you've already committed to work for X amount of time).
- swombat 14y ago
  I don't agree about a competitive mindset for negotiating salary, actually. It should also be collaborative. Don't say "Why don't you give me a pay raise?" but say "What can I do to earn £Xk more?" If the answer is "nothing" - find another job. If the answer is "just keep doing what you're doing and wait 10 years until you get promoted to the level where that's the salary" - find another career. If the answer is reasonable, and achievable within a reasonable period of time, do it and get your pay raise.
  - seagreen 14y ago
    I really like your way of approaching salary. Often though people will start providing more value without an agreement up front that it will earn a raise. In those cases a great boss might go ahead and give it to you spontaneously, but if that doesn't happen you need to know how to apply firm but friendly pressure.
    - swombat 14y ago
      Well, providing extra value without any kind of agreement as to what compensation you might get for it is, IMHO, a rookie mistake - and one you shouldn't make twice. If you have confidence in your abilities, address the topic up front!

astine 14y ago

Dude, it's actually rather simple. Value is subjective. You are worth whatever people are willing to give you. If an employer or client is willing to pay you $80k to watch Youtube videos all day then you watching Youtube videos all day is worth that to him. What you need to do is not measure your worth in how hard you feel that you are working or how rare you feel that your knowledge is. You are probably a very poor judge of that anyway. You should try to measure it in terms of how much value you create for an employer. That's also hard to measure, but it's much closer to what you can legitimately ask for. Look at it like this: If you write a program that saves a boss an hour of work every day, and that boss makes $250k a year, that program is worth about $31,250 a year, even if it only took you three minutes to write it. If that same program saves dozens of people an hour of work every day, it's worth even more. If you write a program that does the work of three accountants, you are worth, three accountants. As a programmer, you probably produce a lot more value than you think you do. Just keep that in mind next time you're at the bargaining table.

seagreen 14y ago

The following is just an inexperienced guess, so feel free to ignore it and seek other counsel, but . . . I think the most important thing is to realize that negotiating pay takes a totally different mindset from programming. When programming you're trying to be creative and cooperative. When negotiating pay you should have a competitive mindset. Your employer is to some extent your opponent and you're playing poker with him. The thing is -- that's OK (or at least it should be). If a potential employer is making it feel like you're pushing against him personally when you ask for higher pay he's being the jerk, not you (this is of course situational -- things might be different if you've already committed to work for X amount of time).

swombat 14y ago
I don't agree about a competitive mindset for negotiating salary, actually. It should also be collaborative. Don't say "Why don't you give me a pay raise?" but say "What can I do to earn £Xk more?" If the answer is "nothing" - find another job. If the answer is "just keep doing what you're doing and wait 10 years until you get promoted to the level where that's the salary" - find another career. If the answer is reasonable, and achievable within a reasonable period of time, do it and get your pay raise.
- seagreen 14y ago
  I really like your way of approaching salary. Often though people will start providing more value without an agreement up front that it will earn a raise. In those cases a great boss might go ahead and give it to you spontaneously, but if that doesn't happen you need to know how to apply firm but friendly pressure.
  - swombat 14y ago
    Well, providing extra value without any kind of agreement as to what compensation you might get for it is, IMHO, a rookie mistake - and one you shouldn't make twice. If you have confidence in your abilities, address the topic up front!