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Anyone in the know who can tell us what it specifically means to get this certification? The ISO faq for it just says “responsible AI management” over and over

by dartos 2y ago

Anyone in the know who can tell us what it specifically means to get this certification? The ISO faq for it just says “responsible AI management” over and over again.

Zafira 2y ago
There are some draft PDFs of the standard floating around that are easily discoverable. It appears to be incredibly vague and it’s difficult to escape the sense that ISO just wants to jump on the AI bandwagon. There are no bright line rules or anything. It looks to be little more than weak scaffolding which a certified organization applies their own controls.
- number6 2y ago
  Sadly, ISO 42001 certification doesn't ensure compliance with the EU AI Act. Since this is European legislation, it would be beneficial if certifications actually guaranteed regulatory compliance. For example, while ISO 27001 compliance does establish a strong foundation for many compliance requirement
  - gr3ml1n 2y ago
    The rest of the world should simply stop bothering with European silliness tbh.
    - sofixa 2y ago
      And embrace the future of e.g. AI models deciding if you get healthcare or government services or a loan or if you're a fraud, or not, with zero oversight, accountability or responsibility for the organisation deploying them? Check out the Post Office scandal in the UK to see what can happen when "computer says so" is the only argument to imprison people, with no accountability for the company that sold the very wrong computers and systems, nor the organisation that bought them and blindly trusted them. Hard pass. The EU is in the right and ahead of everyone else here, as they were with data privacy.
  - dr_dshiv 2y ago
    The AI Act is hilarious. It makes emotion detection the highest level of risk—which makes any frontier model potentially in violation. Most frontier models now allow you to take a picture of your face, assess your emotions and give advice — and that appears to be a direct violation. https://www.twobirds.com/en/insights/2024/global/what-is-an-emotion-recognition-system-under-the-eus-artificial-intelligence-act-part-1 https://www.twobirds.com/en/insights/2024/global/what-is-an-... Just like the GDPR, there is no way to know for sure what is actually acceptable or not. Huge chilling effect though and a lot of time wasted on unnecessary compliance.
    - molf 2y ago
      You are referring to Article 5 1.f? "1 The following AI practices shall be prohibited: (...) "f) the placing on the market, the putting into service for this specific purpose, or the use of AI systems to infer emotions of a natural person in the areas of workplace and education institutions, except where the use of the AI system is intended to be put in place or into the market for medical or safety reasons" See recital 44 for a rationale. [1] I don't think this is "hilarious". Seems a very reasonable, thoughtful restriction; which does not prevent usage for personal use or research purposes. What exactly is the problem with such legislation? [1]: https://artificialintelligenceact.eu/recital/44/ https://artificialintelligenceact.eu/recital/44/
      - dr_dshiv 2y ago
        It effectively bans the educational use of ChatGPT and Claude because they can and do respond to the emotional expression of students. That’s what is hilarious! Do these tools actually violate the act? No one knows. It isn’t clear. Meanwhile, my university is worried enough to sit on their hands. And this is the whole danger/challenge of the AI act. Of course it seems reasonable to forbid emotion detecting AI in the workplace — or it would 5 years ago when the ideas were discussed. But now that all major AI systems can detect emotions and infer intent (via paralinguistic features, not just a user stating their emotions) — this kind of precaution puts Europe strategically behind. It is very hard to be an AI company in Europe. The AI act does not appear to be beneficial for anyone—-except I’m sure that it will support regulatory capture by large firms.
nuccy 2y ago
ISO is one of those companies, where creativity of employees is blossoming through the roof. Every day they come to work and start the day with a brainstorming "What standard do we create today?". ISO can standardise anything: a standard cup of tea - no problem: ISO 3103, a standard wine glass - yes: ISO 3591, standard alpine ski boots - of course: ISO 5355, a standard human - oh wait, not yet, the standard is being developed :) Jokes aside, ISO is a company, and they will make a standard for anything where there is even a remote possibility of that standard being purchased.

by dartos 2y ago

Anyone in the know who can tell us what it specifically means to get this certification? The ISO faq for it just says “responsible AI management” over and over again.

Zafira 2y ago

There are some draft PDFs of the standard floating around that are easily discoverable. It appears to be incredibly vague and it’s difficult to escape the sense that ISO just wants to jump on the AI bandwagon. There are no bright line rules or anything. It looks to be little more than weak scaffolding which a certified organization applies their own controls.

number6 2y ago
Sadly, ISO 42001 certification doesn't ensure compliance with the EU AI Act. Since this is European legislation, it would be beneficial if certifications actually guaranteed regulatory compliance. For example, while ISO 27001 compliance does establish a strong foundation for many compliance requirement
- gr3ml1n 2y ago
  The rest of the world should simply stop bothering with European silliness tbh.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    And embrace the future of e.g. AI models deciding if you get healthcare or government services or a loan or if you're a fraud, or not, with zero oversight, accountability or responsibility for the organisation deploying them? Check out the Post Office scandal in the UK to see what can happen when "computer says so" is the only argument to imprison people, with no accountability for the company that sold the very wrong computers and systems, nor the organisation that bought them and blindly trusted them. Hard pass. The EU is in the right and ahead of everyone else here, as they were with data privacy.
- dr_dshiv 2y ago
  The AI Act is hilarious. It makes emotion detection the highest level of risk—which makes any frontier model potentially in violation. Most frontier models now allow you to take a picture of your face, assess your emotions and give advice — and that appears to be a direct violation. https://www.twobirds.com/en/insights/2024/global/what-is-an-emotion-recognition-system-under-the-eus-artificial-intelligence-act-part-1 https://www.twobirds.com/en/insights/2024/global/what-is-an-... Just like the GDPR, there is no way to know for sure what is actually acceptable or not. Huge chilling effect though and a lot of time wasted on unnecessary compliance.
  - molf 2y ago
    You are referring to Article 5 1.f? "1 The following AI practices shall be prohibited: (...) "f) the placing on the market, the putting into service for this specific purpose, or the use of AI systems to infer emotions of a natural person in the areas of workplace and education institutions, except where the use of the AI system is intended to be put in place or into the market for medical or safety reasons" See recital 44 for a rationale. [1] I don't think this is "hilarious". Seems a very reasonable, thoughtful restriction; which does not prevent usage for personal use or research purposes. What exactly is the problem with such legislation? [1]: https://artificialintelligenceact.eu/recital/44/ https://artificialintelligenceact.eu/recital/44/
    - dr_dshiv 2y ago
      It effectively bans the educational use of ChatGPT and Claude because they can and do respond to the emotional expression of students. That’s what is hilarious! Do these tools actually violate the act? No one knows. It isn’t clear. Meanwhile, my university is worried enough to sit on their hands. And this is the whole danger/challenge of the AI act. Of course it seems reasonable to forbid emotion detecting AI in the workplace — or it would 5 years ago when the ideas were discussed. But now that all major AI systems can detect emotions and infer intent (via paralinguistic features, not just a user stating their emotions) — this kind of precaution puts Europe strategically behind. It is very hard to be an AI company in Europe. The AI act does not appear to be beneficial for anyone—-except I’m sure that it will support regulatory capture by large firms.

nuccy 2y ago

ISO is one of those companies, where creativity of employees is blossoming through the roof. Every day they come to work and start the day with a brainstorming "What standard do we create today?". ISO can standardise anything: a standard cup of tea - no problem: ISO 3103, a standard wine glass - yes: ISO 3591, standard alpine ski boots - of course: ISO 5355, a standard human - oh wait, not yet, the standard is being developed :) Jokes aside, ISO is a company, and they will make a standard for anything where there is even a remote possibility of that standard being purchased.