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Never mind that Hamas will STILL have hostages after the deal is done. That Gaza is ruled by an organization stating they’ll continue doing an Oct 7th again and

Never mind that Hamas will STILL have hostages after the deal is done. That Gaza is ruled by an organization stating they’ll continue doing an Oct 7th again and again. It takes both sides to agree to a better future.

hedora 2y ago
How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care for them any more. That’s 10 orphaned kids for every Israel civilian casualty in the middle of a famine with no support infrastructure.
- jraby3 2y ago
  It could be made more fair if all the hostages were released. Why would international society accept hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, raped and murdered for over a year as acceptable? Israel actually built a lot of the civilian infrastructure, including the largest hospital in Gaza. It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. Why is it acceptable to shoot rockets purely targeting civilians while breaking a cease fire agreement?
  - GordonS 2y ago
    > hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, taped and murdered There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well! AFAIK the only known instance of Hamas murdering a hostage was when a fighter lost it after Israel killed his entire family - all the other deaths have been a result of Israeli bombs (because if you want hostages back, you bomb them... right?!). And as you doubtless know, many of the "peaceful civilians" are actually serving IDF members... And as you also doubtless know, Palestinian hostages are routinely raped and tortured to death in Israeli dungeons - there is a wealth of evidence. > It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. This is what Israeli Hasbara do - repeat unevidenced claims until people accept them as "truth". But it's lies, there isn't a shred of evidence that Hamas as used even a single hospital as a "terrorist hideout". You know who has repurposed Gazan hospitals for military ops? Israel - every accusation is a confession with them.
    - almogo 2y ago
      Can't believe we're here again. > There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well! Hamas literally executed some: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/01/middleeast/israel-gaza-wwk-hostages-killed-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/01/middleeast/israel-gaza-ww... But yeah, other than that, treated very well!
      - GordonS 2y ago
        This "news article" doesn't support your claims - it only says the IGF claims these hostages were killed a short while before they reached them. Given the IGF has murdered Israeli hostages up close, has taken the approach of reducing gaza to rubble, and is constantly caught lying, it's far more likely these hostages were killed by bombs or IGF bullets.
        jraby3 2y ago
        How are you supporting a group that would take a newborn baby as a hostage? What drugs do you need to take to pretend that it's ok and defend the kidnappers?!?
        GordonS 2y ago
        I'm not supporting Hamas or what they did on October 7th. I'm against genocide and the utterly, utterly horrifying actions of the IDF, and against Israeli propaganda that has been used to manufacture consent for a modern day holocaust. BTW, Israel has killed at least the equivalent of one Palestinian child every 30 minutes since October 7th. That is just mind-boggling evil at an industrial scale.
        jraby3 2y ago
        If all you do is look at the death count then it's easy to use a number and point against Israel. You need to go deeper. The best article I've scene on the subject for some moral clarity is here: https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-bright-line-between-good-and-evil https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-bright-line-between-good-...
  - kombine 2y ago
    > It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. No, this is not pretty clear. This is pure Israeli propaganda.
- bawolff 2y ago
  > How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keeping hostages is a war crime. A fair thing would be for Hamas to follow its obligations under international law and unconditionally release them (before anyone says, well israel did X which also isn't allowed, 2 wrongs don't make a right). > more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii How are you quantifying this? I'd be surprised if Gaza has more damage than say Dresden.
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    Dresden is a darkly funny choice for comparison. Area bombing definitely wasn't a war crime and Arthur Harris was not a war criminal.
    - bawolff 2y ago
      Regardless of the circumstances of the bombing, if the question is - did there exist any cities in europe that were more damaged in WW2 than gaza was in the current conflict, isn't it natural to compare gaza with the most famously damaged european city in WW2? Like what comparison would you expect to be made in relation to that question?
      - lostlogin 2y ago
        Dresden was levelled and does make your point. I’d have picked Warsaw. Completely destroyed while clearing out the ghetto after the uprising which was brutally suppressed. It has some grim parallels too.
        hedora 2y ago
        Dresden: 23% of industrial buildings, 50% of homes, 25,000 dead: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 Warsaw was closer, but only 85-90% of its buildings were destroyed by the Nazis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw The statistic I heard was “more than any city in wwii”. I figured that Hiroshima (67%) years or Nagasaki (37%) were worse. Gaza crossed 90% of all buildings in May, so I shouldn’t have qualified my statement with the word “European”. Edit: I found one partial counterexample: The firebombing of Tokyo killed about 10x more people than Israel did during this conflict, but didn’t do nearly as much damage (as a percentage) to buildings: https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo
- KikoHeit 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - lostlogin 2y ago
    This is just such a toxic thread. What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas? There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.
    - KikoHeit 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - dan_pollow 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - bawolff 2y ago
      Civilians who die during war rarely have any responsibility for the things their leader do. What say did the average russian citizen have in putin's choice to invade Ukraine? And yet we are largely ok with ukraine bombing russia, killing some of those civilians in the process. That is the way of war. I believe we should focus on things that are violations of the rules of war, not civilian death in its entirety. Otherwise we are just saying war is evil, as innocents have died in pretty much every war. A true point perhaps but kind of useless. It also raises the question of what one should do when confronted with war? Just roll over and die. It has been alleged that Israel has violated rules of war. If true and backed up by evidence, it should be condemed for such violation. But civilian deaths are not a violation of the rules of war. They can be under certain circumstances, but they aren't in and of themselves.
      - GordonS 2y ago
        Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional - and Israel has repeatedly, deliberately targeted civilians, including children. There is an abundance of evidence, and yes you are right that they should be condemned - except Israel and their stooges always cry "antisemitism!", before going straight back to more war crimes and genocide. Not to mention how Israel has destroyed nearly every (or every, now?) hospital in Gaza to prevent civilians from being treated. Or how Israel haa prevented aid from entering Gaza. Or how bulldozer drivers drive over hundreds of Palestinians, dead and alive. Or... gods, there is so much more, Israel is a deeply sick society.

hedora 2y ago

How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care for them any more. That’s 10 orphaned kids for every Israel civilian casualty in the middle of a famine with no support infrastructure.

jraby3 2y ago
It could be made more fair if all the hostages were released. Why would international society accept hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, raped and murdered for over a year as acceptable? Israel actually built a lot of the civilian infrastructure, including the largest hospital in Gaza. It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. Why is it acceptable to shoot rockets purely targeting civilians while breaking a cease fire agreement?
- GordonS 2y ago
  > hundreds of peaceful civilians being tortured, taped and murdered There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well! AFAIK the only known instance of Hamas murdering a hostage was when a fighter lost it after Israel killed his entire family - all the other deaths have been a result of Israeli bombs (because if you want hostages back, you bomb them... right?!). And as you doubtless know, many of the "peaceful civilians" are actually serving IDF members... And as you also doubtless know, Palestinian hostages are routinely raped and tortured to death in Israeli dungeons - there is a wealth of evidence. > It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. This is what Israeli Hasbara do - repeat unevidenced claims until people accept them as "truth". But it's lies, there isn't a shred of evidence that Hamas as used even a single hospital as a "terrorist hideout". You know who has repurposed Gazan hospitals for military ops? Israel - every accusation is a confession with them.
  - almogo 2y ago
    Can't believe we're here again. > There is no absolute evidence that any of Hamas' hostages have been raped or tortured - according to released hostages, they were treated very well! Hamas literally executed some: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/01/middleeast/israel-gaza-wwk-hostages-killed-intl-hnk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/01/middleeast/israel-gaza-ww... But yeah, other than that, treated very well!
    - GordonS 2y ago
      This "news article" doesn't support your claims - it only says the IGF claims these hostages were killed a short while before they reached them. Given the IGF has murdered Israeli hostages up close, has taken the approach of reducing gaza to rubble, and is constantly caught lying, it's far more likely these hostages were killed by bombs or IGF bullets.
      - jraby3 2y ago
        How are you supporting a group that would take a newborn baby as a hostage? What drugs do you need to take to pretend that it's ok and defend the kidnappers?!?
        GordonS 2y ago
        I'm not supporting Hamas or what they did on October 7th. I'm against genocide and the utterly, utterly horrifying actions of the IDF, and against Israeli propaganda that has been used to manufacture consent for a modern day holocaust. BTW, Israel has killed at least the equivalent of one Palestinian child every 30 minutes since October 7th. That is just mind-boggling evil at an industrial scale.
        jraby3 2y ago
        If all you do is look at the death count then it's easy to use a number and point against Israel. You need to go deeper. The best article I've scene on the subject for some moral clarity is here: https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-bright-line-between-good-and-evil https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-bright-line-between-good-...
- kombine 2y ago
  > It's pretty clear those places are being used as terrorist hideouts and to launch rocket attacks. No, this is not pretty clear. This is pure Israeli propaganda.
bawolff 2y ago
> How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keeping hostages is a war crime. A fair thing would be for Hamas to follow its obligations under international law and unconditionally release them (before anyone says, well israel did X which also isn't allowed, 2 wrongs don't make a right). > more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii How are you quantifying this? I'd be surprised if Gaza has more damage than say Dresden.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  Dresden is a darkly funny choice for comparison. Area bombing definitely wasn't a war crime and Arthur Harris was not a war criminal.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    Regardless of the circumstances of the bombing, if the question is - did there exist any cities in europe that were more damaged in WW2 than gaza was in the current conflict, isn't it natural to compare gaza with the most famously damaged european city in WW2? Like what comparison would you expect to be made in relation to that question?
    - lostlogin 2y ago
      Dresden was levelled and does make your point. I’d have picked Warsaw. Completely destroyed while clearing out the ghetto after the uprising which was brutally suppressed. It has some grim parallels too.
      - hedora 2y ago
        Dresden: 23% of industrial buildings, 50% of homes, 25,000 dead: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51448486 Warsaw was closer, but only 85-90% of its buildings were destroyed by the Nazis: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw The statistic I heard was “more than any city in wwii”. I figured that Hiroshima (67%) years or Nagasaki (37%) were worse. Gaza crossed 90% of all buildings in May, so I shouldn’t have qualified my statement with the word “European”. Edit: I found one partial counterexample: The firebombing of Tokyo killed about 10x more people than Israel did during this conflict, but didn’t do nearly as much damage (as a percentage) to buildings: https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo https://www.britannica.com/event/Bombing-of-Tokyo
KikoHeit 2y ago
[flagged]
- lostlogin 2y ago
  This is just such a toxic thread. What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas? There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.
  - KikoHeit 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dan_pollow 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - bawolff 2y ago
    Civilians who die during war rarely have any responsibility for the things their leader do. What say did the average russian citizen have in putin's choice to invade Ukraine? And yet we are largely ok with ukraine bombing russia, killing some of those civilians in the process. That is the way of war. I believe we should focus on things that are violations of the rules of war, not civilian death in its entirety. Otherwise we are just saying war is evil, as innocents have died in pretty much every war. A true point perhaps but kind of useless. It also raises the question of what one should do when confronted with war? Just roll over and die. It has been alleged that Israel has violated rules of war. If true and backed up by evidence, it should be condemed for such violation. But civilian deaths are not a violation of the rules of war. They can be under certain circumstances, but they aren't in and of themselves.
    - GordonS 2y ago
      Civilian deaths are a violation if they are intentional - and Israel has repeatedly, deliberately targeted civilians, including children. There is an abundance of evidence, and yes you are right that they should be condemned - except Israel and their stooges always cry "antisemitism!", before going straight back to more war crimes and genocide. Not to mention how Israel has destroyed nearly every (or every, now?) hospital in Gaza to prevent civilians from being treated. Or how Israel haa prevented aid from entering Gaza. Or how bulldozer drivers drive over hundreds of Palestinians, dead and alive. Or... gods, there is so much more, Israel is a deeply sick society.