5 ms·

Zionism is a colonial ideology created by Europeans in the late 1800s.

by gravisultra 2y ago

robertoandred 2y ago
[dead]
jazzyjackson 2y ago
[flagged]
- dartos 2y ago
  > Colonialism is a leftist ideology created by college professors in the 1970s And that matters because…? > Furthermore, there is no colony without a mother country. I think you’re picking and choosing a definition of colony that fits your argument. Here’s a more applicable one: “ a body of people who settle far from home but maintain ties with their homeland; inhabitants remain nationals of their home state but are not literally under the home state's system of government” Instead of making ad hominem attacks and playing semantics, why not argue against the actual ideas?
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    I’m sure the people of Israel would have loved to maintain ties with their homeland but they have been run out of Europe and the Middle East. so where is this Jewish homeland that the colonists in Israel are maintaining ties to? I don’t know that I see a particular difference between ideas and semantics when the assertion is “Israel is a European colonialist project”
    - hmcq6 2y ago
      > I’m sure the people of Israel would have loved to maintain ties with their homeland Oh yeah, there's definitely no ties between the two. EU states definitely didn't send 1.76 billion euros ($1.9bn) (in arms) to Israel in exchange for the "security" Israel offers. /s But also > Israel is a society of immigrants and their offspring: 23 percent of the Jewish majority as of 2018 was foreign born, 32 percent was comprised of the second generation (Israeli born to immigrant parents), and 47 percent was third generation (Israeli born to Israeli-born parents). https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/israel-law-of-return-asylum-labor-migration https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/israel-law-of-return... So like... not only does Israel have ties with it's "mother country" but even the Israelis themselves do have ties to their own personal homelands.
      - Yawrehto 2y ago
        [flagged]
      - klipt 2y ago
        > 23 percent of the Jewish majority as of 2018 was foreign born You know what population is usually foreign born? Refugees! > even the Israelis themselves do have ties to their own personal homelands. What ties do Yemenite Jews who fled to Israel have to a Yemen that is ruled by the Houthis, an almost comically Nazi-like group whose flag literally has "a curse on the Jews" written on it in big letters? These people are refugees, not "colonists"
        hmcq6 2y ago
        Do you have any evidence that a large percentage of that population is refugees? What was Yaakov Fauci fleeing from? > These people are refugees, not "colonists" Many settlers in America were fleeing religious prosecution in Britain, that doesn't make them not colonizers.
        klipt 2y ago
        > Do you have any evidence that a large percentage of that population is refugees? Have you not heard of the Holocaust? The majority of Israelis descend either from refugees from Europe (Ashkenazim), or refugees from Arab/Muslim countries (Mizrahim) whose homes were stolen by Europeans or Arabs, respectively. > What was Yaakov Fauci fleeing from? American born Israelis are a small minority. > Many settlers in America were fleeing religious prosecution in Britain, that doesn't make them not colonizers. So if a Palestinian from Gaza gets asylum in the US, does that make that Palestinian a colonizer of Native American land?
        hmcq6 2y ago
        1) I gave you hard data, I don't count "You don't remember the holocaust" as hard data. 2) Prove it. Give me data not just your opinion. 3) Not really and I fail to see how this is even important. The US is not engaging in active colonization, it has fully colonized the US. You could even argue we've moved in the direction of decolonization by giving back some land to the indigenous population. Can we agree an American-Israel dual citizen stealing the house someone is currently living in is different than someone fleeing ethnic cleansing? Like if the US invades Greenland and that Palestinian fled to America and then participated in the colonization then yes they would be a colonizer. The flip side of this double hypothetical is that Israel is actively building illegal settlements on Palestinian land so anyone who immigrates and isn't under legitimate duress to do so is a colonizer.
    - dartos 2y ago
      > I’m sure the people of Israel would have loved to maintain ties with their homeland but they have been run out of Europe and the Middle East. so where is this Jewish homeland that the colonists in Israel are maintaining ties to? Much better. I personally wouldn’t call Israel a European colonization effort. I don’t think Jews really had a homeland per se. AFAIK they were a nation without any land. It seemed like Israel was part reparations for the holocaust and part installing a strategic ally in the Middle East. Maybe that’s a thin line. I can absolutely see how someone could make that argument, though, when framed like this: A fairly western style country, funded by wealthy western countries, taking and keeping hold of some land in a very not western style part of the world.
      - redmajor12 2y ago
        The IDF has been entirely dependent on US and European armaments and funds for all of its battles, with the only exception being the '47 independence war. Since then, Israel has been a Western military-industrial client state. The current genocide is entirely funded by the US. It seems foolish, because giving the defense industry a free subsidy via Israel annoys our Arab oil suppliers and our oil companies, but there must be enough corporate welfare to go around because the defense companies and the oil companies haven't gone to war with each other directly, yet.
    - prox 2y ago
      There are some great answers in r/askhistorians Here is one : https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17ika73/why_does_israel_exists/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17ika73/why_... Read it and you get a much more nuanced idea of the topic.
- gravisultra 2y ago
  Herzl, Zionism’s founder explicitly described Zionism as colonialism in the 1890s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_coloniali...
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    You got me there, luckily I don't have to retract my snark because it has been deservedly flagged. Still I stand by that "colonialist" was not used as a pejorative until much more recently.
    - defrost 2y ago
      Colonial countries used it freely in the 1880s. By the 1950s it was recognised as a slur * 1955 Wall St. Jrnl. 30 Dec. 1/3 The Communist Party Boss: Again accused the West of colonialist aims. * 1958 Manch. Guardian Weekly 12 June 8/3 Mr. Bandaranaike's Government uses methods which it would denounce as ‘colonialist’ if they were employed by others. * 1959 ‘M. Derby’ Tigress ii. 85 ‘And you were ― ?’ ‘A colonialist, Madam. I exploited these unhappy natives to make a fortune for myself.‥ We colonialists thought only of private gain.’ examples taken from full O.E.D entry
    - slt2021 2y ago
      Golda Meir told explicitly to NOT send poor, old, sick, and Holocaust survivors(!!!)) Because zionists wanted only healthy strong and ideologically zionist people to settle the land. Zionists even signed agreement with Adolf Hitler (at the time when entire world boycotted Nazi regime) and opened the doors for rich German jews to escape Germany (~40k people across Germany), while completely throwing all other millions of jews to the holocaust 1. https://x.com/_ZachFoster/status/1844464179287355571 https://x.com/_ZachFoster/status/1844464179287355571 2. https://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story35114.html https://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story35...
    - panick21_ 2y ago
      Just because it wasn't used as pejorative doesn't mean that the meaning then is something we today should consider it not a problem. What they meant was the same thing we do now. Its just that we now consider it something not all that nice.
Yawrehto 2y ago
[flagged]
- hmcq6 2y ago
  > Also, in what upside-down universe is a forcibly expelled indigenous people returning home 'colonial'? Because they weren't forcibly expelled from Palestine! If I get unlawfully evicted from my new apartment that doesn't give me the right to go take my old apartment by force. By your logic I can use my 23 and me to prove the whole world belongs to me (excluding Australia and Antartica). That's not how this works.
  - Yawrehto 2y ago
    I do not normally swear, but what the fuck? We absolutely were expelled (genocided, really). Or what else would you call the Romans banning us from our holy city Jerusalem (and renaming it, just like they renamed the whole region to try to deny our indigenousness, and also bulldozing our temple--you can go see it today, it's underneath the Al-Aqsa Mosque) and selling us as slaves around the empire and subsequent rulers forbidding us to return!?
    - slt2021 2y ago
      1. Romans didn't just wake up one day and decide to banish ancient israelites from Jerusalem, they responded to the brutal and murderous revolt where local roman government was murdered. 2. DNA analysis showed that european jews (especially secular zionists) have no connection to the land of Palestine, it is Palestinians, Jordanian Christians, and Samaritans who are native. 3. Slavery is bad, a lot of people were sold as slaves throughout the history. Lets talk about who owned all trans-atlantic slave trade to America? Who brought all slaves in Caribbeans and American south ? It was Dutch Jewish slave traders who were leading the slave trade Now can we talk about reparations for slavery from Israel to all the Black Americans and mixed race people who are descendants of slaves?
      - Yawrehto 2y ago
nickff 2y ago
[flagged]
- slt2021 2y ago
  thats not true. before the declaration of independence, there was hardly any abar jews migration to Israel for several reasons: 1. Arab jews lived peacefully among muslims and coexisted just fine, they were not subject to european disrimination and pogroms 2. Iraqi jews did not want to immigrate to Israel, so Mossad planted bombs and organized false flags to scare them and force them to immigrate (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-jews-attacks-zionist-role-confirmed-operative-police-report https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-jews-attacks-zionist...) 3. Other arab countries also did not want to emigrate, Ben Gurion paid a lot of money for each family to encourage immigration. It is laughable to claim that arabs prosecuted jews, when in fact they coexisted for millennia and lived in the same neighborhoods without any segregation (that existed in Europe) 4. Mizrahi jews who immigrated to Israel suffered from severe discrimination by european ashkenazi. Only low paid jobs were given to Arab jews due to racism. Same racism is towards yemeni jews who were even subject to illegal sterilization after the Nakba situation in arab countries changed, but it was reactionary to Nakba
  - dralley 2y ago
    This is quite frankly delusional.
- klipt 2y ago
  [flagged]
- littlestymaar 2y ago
  Yes, but it only happened after 1946. The worse part for Mizrahi Jews is that they endured tons of suffering for things they had nothing to do with, and that even in today's Israel they are kind of second-class citizens facing discrimination by Ashkenazi.

Zionism is a colonial ideology created by Europeans in the late 1800s.

robertoandred 2y ago

[dead]

jazzyjackson 2y ago

[flagged]

dartos 2y ago
> Colonialism is a leftist ideology created by college professors in the 1970s And that matters because…? > Furthermore, there is no colony without a mother country. I think you’re picking and choosing a definition of colony that fits your argument. Here’s a more applicable one: “ a body of people who settle far from home but maintain ties with their homeland; inhabitants remain nationals of their home state but are not literally under the home state's system of government” Instead of making ad hominem attacks and playing semantics, why not argue against the actual ideas?
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I’m sure the people of Israel would have loved to maintain ties with their homeland but they have been run out of Europe and the Middle East. so where is this Jewish homeland that the colonists in Israel are maintaining ties to? I don’t know that I see a particular difference between ideas and semantics when the assertion is “Israel is a European colonialist project”
  - hmcq6 2y ago
    > I’m sure the people of Israel would have loved to maintain ties with their homeland Oh yeah, there's definitely no ties between the two. EU states definitely didn't send 1.76 billion euros ($1.9bn) (in arms) to Israel in exchange for the "security" Israel offers. /s But also > Israel is a society of immigrants and their offspring: 23 percent of the Jewish majority as of 2018 was foreign born, 32 percent was comprised of the second generation (Israeli born to immigrant parents), and 47 percent was third generation (Israeli born to Israeli-born parents). https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/israel-law-of-return-asylum-labor-migration https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/israel-law-of-return... So like... not only does Israel have ties with it's "mother country" but even the Israelis themselves do have ties to their own personal homelands.
    - Yawrehto 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - klipt 2y ago
      > 23 percent of the Jewish majority as of 2018 was foreign born You know what population is usually foreign born? Refugees! > even the Israelis themselves do have ties to their own personal homelands. What ties do Yemenite Jews who fled to Israel have to a Yemen that is ruled by the Houthis, an almost comically Nazi-like group whose flag literally has "a curse on the Jews" written on it in big letters? These people are refugees, not "colonists"
      - hmcq6 2y ago
        Do you have any evidence that a large percentage of that population is refugees? What was Yaakov Fauci fleeing from? > These people are refugees, not "colonists" Many settlers in America were fleeing religious prosecution in Britain, that doesn't make them not colonizers.
        klipt 2y ago
        > Do you have any evidence that a large percentage of that population is refugees? Have you not heard of the Holocaust? The majority of Israelis descend either from refugees from Europe (Ashkenazim), or refugees from Arab/Muslim countries (Mizrahim) whose homes were stolen by Europeans or Arabs, respectively. > What was Yaakov Fauci fleeing from? American born Israelis are a small minority. > Many settlers in America were fleeing religious prosecution in Britain, that doesn't make them not colonizers. So if a Palestinian from Gaza gets asylum in the US, does that make that Palestinian a colonizer of Native American land?
        hmcq6 2y ago
        1) I gave you hard data, I don't count "You don't remember the holocaust" as hard data. 2) Prove it. Give me data not just your opinion. 3) Not really and I fail to see how this is even important. The US is not engaging in active colonization, it has fully colonized the US. You could even argue we've moved in the direction of decolonization by giving back some land to the indigenous population. Can we agree an American-Israel dual citizen stealing the house someone is currently living in is different than someone fleeing ethnic cleansing? Like if the US invades Greenland and that Palestinian fled to America and then participated in the colonization then yes they would be a colonizer. The flip side of this double hypothetical is that Israel is actively building illegal settlements on Palestinian land so anyone who immigrates and isn't under legitimate duress to do so is a colonizer.
  - dartos 2y ago
    > I’m sure the people of Israel would have loved to maintain ties with their homeland but they have been run out of Europe and the Middle East. so where is this Jewish homeland that the colonists in Israel are maintaining ties to? Much better. I personally wouldn’t call Israel a European colonization effort. I don’t think Jews really had a homeland per se. AFAIK they were a nation without any land. It seemed like Israel was part reparations for the holocaust and part installing a strategic ally in the Middle East. Maybe that’s a thin line. I can absolutely see how someone could make that argument, though, when framed like this: A fairly western style country, funded by wealthy western countries, taking and keeping hold of some land in a very not western style part of the world.
    - redmajor12 2y ago
      The IDF has been entirely dependent on US and European armaments and funds for all of its battles, with the only exception being the '47 independence war. Since then, Israel has been a Western military-industrial client state. The current genocide is entirely funded by the US. It seems foolish, because giving the defense industry a free subsidy via Israel annoys our Arab oil suppliers and our oil companies, but there must be enough corporate welfare to go around because the defense companies and the oil companies haven't gone to war with each other directly, yet.
  - prox 2y ago
    There are some great answers in r/askhistorians Here is one : https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17ika73/why_does_israel_exists/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17ika73/why_... Read it and you get a much more nuanced idea of the topic.
gravisultra 2y ago
Herzl, Zionism’s founder explicitly described Zionism as colonialism in the 1890s: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_coloniali...
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  You got me there, luckily I don't have to retract my snark because it has been deservedly flagged. Still I stand by that "colonialist" was not used as a pejorative until much more recently.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Colonial countries used it freely in the 1880s. By the 1950s it was recognised as a slur * 1955 Wall St. Jrnl. 30 Dec. 1/3 The Communist Party Boss: Again accused the West of colonialist aims. * 1958 Manch. Guardian Weekly 12 June 8/3 Mr. Bandaranaike's Government uses methods which it would denounce as ‘colonialist’ if they were employed by others. * 1959 ‘M. Derby’ Tigress ii. 85 ‘And you were ― ?’ ‘A colonialist, Madam. I exploited these unhappy natives to make a fortune for myself.‥ We colonialists thought only of private gain.’ examples taken from full O.E.D entry
  - slt2021 2y ago
    Golda Meir told explicitly to NOT send poor, old, sick, and Holocaust survivors(!!!)) Because zionists wanted only healthy strong and ideologically zionist people to settle the land. Zionists even signed agreement with Adolf Hitler (at the time when entire world boycotted Nazi regime) and opened the doors for rich German jews to escape Germany (~40k people across Germany), while completely throwing all other millions of jews to the holocaust 1. https://x.com/_ZachFoster/status/1844464179287355571 https://x.com/_ZachFoster/status/1844464179287355571 2. https://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story35114.html https://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story35...
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    Just because it wasn't used as pejorative doesn't mean that the meaning then is something we today should consider it not a problem. What they meant was the same thing we do now. Its just that we now consider it something not all that nice.

Yawrehto 2y ago

[flagged]

hmcq6 2y ago
> Also, in what upside-down universe is a forcibly expelled indigenous people returning home 'colonial'? Because they weren't forcibly expelled from Palestine! If I get unlawfully evicted from my new apartment that doesn't give me the right to go take my old apartment by force. By your logic I can use my 23 and me to prove the whole world belongs to me (excluding Australia and Antartica). That's not how this works.
- Yawrehto 2y ago
  I do not normally swear, but what the fuck? We absolutely were expelled (genocided, really). Or what else would you call the Romans banning us from our holy city Jerusalem (and renaming it, just like they renamed the whole region to try to deny our indigenousness, and also bulldozing our temple--you can go see it today, it's underneath the Al-Aqsa Mosque) and selling us as slaves around the empire and subsequent rulers forbidding us to return!?
  - slt2021 2y ago
    1. Romans didn't just wake up one day and decide to banish ancient israelites from Jerusalem, they responded to the brutal and murderous revolt where local roman government was murdered. 2. DNA analysis showed that european jews (especially secular zionists) have no connection to the land of Palestine, it is Palestinians, Jordanian Christians, and Samaritans who are native. 3. Slavery is bad, a lot of people were sold as slaves throughout the history. Lets talk about who owned all trans-atlantic slave trade to America? Who brought all slaves in Caribbeans and American south ? It was Dutch Jewish slave traders who were leading the slave trade Now can we talk about reparations for slavery from Israel to all the Black Americans and mixed race people who are descendants of slaves?
    - Yawrehto 2y ago

nickff 2y ago

[flagged]

slt2021 2y ago
thats not true. before the declaration of independence, there was hardly any abar jews migration to Israel for several reasons: 1. Arab jews lived peacefully among muslims and coexisted just fine, they were not subject to european disrimination and pogroms 2. Iraqi jews did not want to immigrate to Israel, so Mossad planted bombs and organized false flags to scare them and force them to immigrate (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-jews-attacks-zionist-role-confirmed-operative-police-report https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iraq-jews-attacks-zionist...) 3. Other arab countries also did not want to emigrate, Ben Gurion paid a lot of money for each family to encourage immigration. It is laughable to claim that arabs prosecuted jews, when in fact they coexisted for millennia and lived in the same neighborhoods without any segregation (that existed in Europe) 4. Mizrahi jews who immigrated to Israel suffered from severe discrimination by european ashkenazi. Only low paid jobs were given to Arab jews due to racism. Same racism is towards yemeni jews who were even subject to illegal sterilization after the Nakba situation in arab countries changed, but it was reactionary to Nakba
- dralley 2y ago
  This is quite frankly delusional.
klipt 2y ago
[flagged]
littlestymaar 2y ago
Yes, but it only happened after 1946. The worse part for Mizrahi Jews is that they endured tons of suffering for things they had nothing to do with, and that even in today's Israel they are kind of second-class citizens facing discrimination by Ashkenazi.