4 ms·

There's even a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to documenting Israel's decades long support for Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

by culi 2y ago

There's even a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to documenting Israel's decades long support for Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

dlubarov 2y ago
As a WP editor, the anti-Israeli editors have become a very strong majority, making it a poor source of objective information. For example the first paragraph of the Zionism article now reads: "Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible." The article you link to essentially boils down to the fact that Qatar funding for some (ostensibly) infrastructure and humanitarian aid projects in Gaza, with Israel facilitating it. It's not really support for Hamas, except in the sense that such Gaza aid projects require the involvement of its government.
- istjohn 2y ago
  That sentence you are critical of has 17(!) supporting citations listed.
  - klipt 2y ago
    I'm sure you could find 17 citations that Muhammad had sex with underage girls but that's not the first sentence of the Wikipedia article on Muhammad, is it? Point being just because something is cited doesn't mean putting it in the first sentence is unbiased.
    - albedoa 2y ago
      ...what?? What should the first sentence of the Zionism article be if not the definition of Zionism and the goals of Zionists? What would an unbiased but complete introductory sentence look like? If the foremost notable thing about Muhammad were that he had sex with underage girls, but instead the actual first sentence is about him being the founder of Islam, then you'd have a devastating point here.
      - klipt 2y ago
        > What would an unbiased but complete introductory sentence look like? The goal of Zionism is to create a safe haven for Jewish refugees, to prevent another situation like the Holocaust where millions of Jewish refugees were murdered.
        albedoa 2y ago
        That is not the goal of Zionism! What in the world are you talking about. I would link you to the Wikipedia article, but, well.
        klipt 2y ago
        Yes, we've established Wikipedia is biased.
        pydry 2y ago
        Not against Zionists, Jimmy Wales is a Zionist. The issue is that the reality distortion field that is required to maintain the current Zionist narrative is just too strong and it quickly falls apart even just by following some basic rules on fair citation.
        dlubarov 2y ago
        Jimmy Wales has no involvement in editing such articles. The Wikipedia Foundation doesn't involve itself in such matters either. For example, when concerns were raised about the ADL (a Jewish NGO) being banned as a source, they responded by (correctly) explaining that "neither the Board or the Foundation make content decisions on Wikipedia. A community of volunteers makes these decisions". Such content matters are entirely community decisions, so of course a biased community results in biased decisions.
        albedoa 2y ago
        We've established that it's as biased against Zionism as it is about Muhammad for leading with the fact that he founded Islam! Your line is bizarre.
MichaelMoser123 2y ago
https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit... - There is even an article that explains exactly how 'a powerful group of editors is hijacking wikipedia, pushing pro-palestinian propaganda, erasing key facts about hamas, and reshaping the narrative around Israel with alarming influence'
- malandrew 2y ago
  To be fair, the JIDF has been astroturfing Wikipedia for far longer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY Who knows where the balance actually lies, but it's not just pro-Palestinians doing the propaganda here. Israel has engaged in far more propaganda than pretty much everyone (except maybe the United States) since the hasbara policy was first established following the public image fallout from the Sabra and Shatila massacre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
  - MichaelMoser123 2y ago
    i think the key passage of this article is when they discuss the shortcomings of the wikipedia arbitration process (Arbcom) - however the wikimedia foundation is not exactly short on cash. '''The charges are serious, and the evidence backing them up abundant. Nevertheless, seven months later the Arbcom case is still pending. The reason is systemic: in a lengthy request for arbitration on a separate PIA case, one of Wikipedia’s arbitrators noted that the final decision-making panel is staffed by 12 volunteers, only 10 of whom are active. “It is clear that AE [arbitration enforcement] has run out of steam to handle the morass of editor conduct issues in PIA,” the arbitrator wrote. “PIA is a Gordian knot; and AE has run short of knot detanglers.” Electing more Arbcom members would require a massive overhaul of the site’s governing regulations, a task akin to the US government amending its constitution. And though Wikimedia Foundation, which owns the site, has around $500 million in assets, because of the air-gap between Wikipedia and WMF and the volunteer ethos of Wikipedia’s mission not a penny can be used to hire people to oversee contentious topics.'''
- 2y ago

by culi 2y ago

dlubarov 2y ago

As a WP editor, the anti-Israeli editors have become a very strong majority, making it a poor source of objective information. For example the first paragraph of the Zionism article now reads: "Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible." The article you link to essentially boils down to the fact that Qatar funding for some (ostensibly) infrastructure and humanitarian aid projects in Gaza, with Israel facilitating it. It's not really support for Hamas, except in the sense that such Gaza aid projects require the involvement of its government.

istjohn 2y ago
That sentence you are critical of has 17(!) supporting citations listed.
- klipt 2y ago
  I'm sure you could find 17 citations that Muhammad had sex with underage girls but that's not the first sentence of the Wikipedia article on Muhammad, is it? Point being just because something is cited doesn't mean putting it in the first sentence is unbiased.
  - albedoa 2y ago
    ...what?? What should the first sentence of the Zionism article be if not the definition of Zionism and the goals of Zionists? What would an unbiased but complete introductory sentence look like? If the foremost notable thing about Muhammad were that he had sex with underage girls, but instead the actual first sentence is about him being the founder of Islam, then you'd have a devastating point here.
    - klipt 2y ago
      > What would an unbiased but complete introductory sentence look like? The goal of Zionism is to create a safe haven for Jewish refugees, to prevent another situation like the Holocaust where millions of Jewish refugees were murdered.
      - albedoa 2y ago
        That is not the goal of Zionism! What in the world are you talking about. I would link you to the Wikipedia article, but, well.
        klipt 2y ago
        Yes, we've established Wikipedia is biased.
        pydry 2y ago
        Not against Zionists, Jimmy Wales is a Zionist. The issue is that the reality distortion field that is required to maintain the current Zionist narrative is just too strong and it quickly falls apart even just by following some basic rules on fair citation.
        dlubarov 2y ago
        Jimmy Wales has no involvement in editing such articles. The Wikipedia Foundation doesn't involve itself in such matters either. For example, when concerns were raised about the ADL (a Jewish NGO) being banned as a source, they responded by (correctly) explaining that "neither the Board or the Foundation make content decisions on Wikipedia. A community of volunteers makes these decisions". Such content matters are entirely community decisions, so of course a biased community results in biased decisions.
        albedoa 2y ago
        We've established that it's as biased against Zionism as it is about Muhammad for leading with the fact that he founded Islam! Your line is bizarre.

MichaelMoser123 2y ago

https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit... - There is even an article that explains exactly how 'a powerful group of editors is hijacking wikipedia, pushing pro-palestinian propaganda, erasing key facts about hamas, and reshaping the narrative around Israel with alarming influence'

malandrew 2y ago
To be fair, the JIDF has been astroturfing Wikipedia for far longer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY Who knows where the balance actually lies, but it's not just pro-Palestinians doing the propaganda here. Israel has engaged in far more propaganda than pretty much everyone (except maybe the United States) since the hasbara policy was first established following the public image fallout from the Sabra and Shatila massacre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre
- MichaelMoser123 2y ago
  i think the key passage of this article is when they discuss the shortcomings of the wikipedia arbitration process (Arbcom) - however the wikimedia foundation is not exactly short on cash. '''The charges are serious, and the evidence backing them up abundant. Nevertheless, seven months later the Arbcom case is still pending. The reason is systemic: in a lengthy request for arbitration on a separate PIA case, one of Wikipedia’s arbitrators noted that the final decision-making panel is staffed by 12 volunteers, only 10 of whom are active. “It is clear that AE [arbitration enforcement] has run out of steam to handle the morass of editor conduct issues in PIA,” the arbitrator wrote. “PIA is a Gordian knot; and AE has run short of knot detanglers.” Electing more Arbcom members would require a massive overhaul of the site’s governing regulations, a task akin to the US government amending its constitution. And though Wikimedia Foundation, which owns the site, has around $500 million in assets, because of the air-gap between Wikipedia and WMF and the volunteer ethos of Wikipedia’s mission not a penny can be used to hire people to oversee contentious topics.'''
2y ago