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What is different from Hamas right to exist compared to the IDF or Likud? Hamas certainly has less blood on their hands!

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
throwaway7783 2y ago
I know you are being downvoted (not by me). This is a good question, if all the context and history is removed, and we are only looking at who killed more. I am trying to respond in good faith, but it looks like Hamas is accepted across the world as a terrorist organization for specifically targeting civilians. And as much as I loathe the loss of civilian life at the hands of IDF, this is not a conventional war, and Hamas hiding within civilian populations and tunneling under hospitals is on Hamas and not on IDF. Like it happened in history a million times, Hamas could've surrendered against a superior enemy and and returned hostages, to protect its own citizens. So, that's why Hamas must cease to exist. Not Palestine itself, nor another government in Palestine - just Hamas. They could've stopped it, they didn't. Let me know when IDF/Likud behave like this unprovoked (Yes, I know what's going on in West bank and its not remotely close to what Hamas did)
- steinvakt2 2y ago
  > Hamas could've surrendered against a superior enemy and and returned hostages, to protect its own citizens. And then Israel would keep occupying more and more land, control their water, electricity, treat Palestinian people like sub-humans, occasionally shoot some children in the head, take palestinian hostages/prisoners without legal right (occasionally tortue and rape them). What do you do then? Protest peacefully?
  - Aloisius 2y ago
    > What do you do then? Protest peacefully? Actually attempting to attack legitimate military targets seems like a bare minimum we should demand of pretty much everyone.
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    > What do you do then? Protest peacefully? Yes. What has violence solved here? Thousands of people have died, and Palestinians are not treated better. I am no sure what peaceful protests would have done, but "nothing" is still way better than what we have now.
    - steinvakt2 2y ago
      You should apply that logic to Israel, since they are by far the most violent.
      - GuB-42 2y ago
        The logic should apply to both, there are no good guys here, just two armies of savages fighting each other and people getting killed, including innocents that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I pointed out Palestine because Israel is in a dominant position, so it is unlikely that they would want to protest, peacefully or not. But it would be nice to see more "peace-and-love" movements like in the 60s that opposed the Vietnam war, among other things.
        steinvakt2 2y ago
        I think that's a naive and ignorant position considering what has been going on since 1948 (violence from both sides, yes, but effectively an apartheid-state with more and more illegal occupations).
regularization 2y ago
Especially since Netanyahu was trying to revive Hamas prior to Hamas's attack, in order to starve off Fatah's Palestinian recognition efforts at the UN, according to the New York Times ( https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... ) Turn on Israeli TV and they're showing the IDF raping prisoners in Sde Teiman. Degenerate behavior from the self-described Jewish state. The US taxpayer is paying the bills for all this bloodshed.
- culi 2y ago
  And at the same time Netanyahu was holding up maps of all of historical Palestine colored in and labelled as Israel. Clearly trying to provoke things
knowitnone 2y ago
[flagged]
- smashah 2y ago
  That's not how dropping 2000lb American bombs from American F-35s by an Israeli flying vampires paid for by American tax dollars onto babies in refugee tents work. The Nazi demons at Auschwitz also blamed their victims in between zyklon B top-up shifts.
Sabinus 2y ago
>IDF or Likud The IDF and Likud does not have a policy of attacking civilians to achieve political or war goals. They likely have some deranged and radicalized commanders who do this anyway, but it's not the organizational policy.
- bbqfog 2y ago
  The IDF and Likud literally just killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria and Yemen.
  - throwaway7783 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - ajmurmann 2y ago
    Is this difference because Hamas values human lives more or because they lack strength to do more harm?
  - Auracle 2y ago
    If some really weak person kept trying to kill you by punching you in the face would you hold your own punch back to only hurt them the same amount or would you absolutely deck them?
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    Why give credit to the paper tiger for not killing? It is unable to.
  - TiredOfLife 2y ago
    And literally zero members of Hamas. It's fascinating how all the population of Palestine consists exclusively of child journalists.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  They spent a year bombing an inhabited city into rubble, killing tens of thousands of civilians. Whatever definition of "policy" you're using here isn't particularly useful I don't think.
hirvi74 2y ago
I mean, realistically speaking, the IDF is a powerful force, while Hamas is not. Israel has the ability to completely take over Gaza, but Gaza does not have the ability to take over Israel. So, as macabre as it may be, Hamas' right to exist, technically speaking, is controlled by Israel. (All of this assuming no outside intervention for 3rd-party nations or groups of nations, of course.)
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  And let's not forget that the IDF previously removed Jewish inhabitants from Gaza to appease Hamas. Totally unimaginable the other way around.
Niten 2y ago
Hamas is a terrorist, Islamist organization with the explicit goal of genocide against Israelis: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha... The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands.
- miracle2k 2y ago
  > The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Thousands of Palestinians children are dead, and for every single one, Israel could have chosen not to kill them, and the decision to do so is on them.
  - jonathanstrange 2y ago
    They had no choice. If you're Natanyahu on October 8, 2023, and the reports of the Hamas massacres on civilians come in, there is almost no leeway for reacting in a way differently than how the Israeli government and the IDF reacted. What I've heard from "pro-Palestine" (= pro Hamas) supporters as alternatives so far was utterly unconvincing, basically variations of the following: - The "Israel should disband itself" reply: Give in to terrorists' demands, give them their country, and humbly negotiated for a freeing of the hostages without any military response. Hamas remains in charge as military dictatorship of Gaza. - The military genius reply: I would have sent only special forces to Gaza to go after the Hamas leadership and free all hostages. No civilians would have been harmed and all collateral damage is avoided. Neither of these are even remotely realistic. What was ordered and how events unfolded was more or less like any other country would have reacted. Two goals: #1 Destroy Hamas, #2 Free the hostages. The problem right now with the hostage deal is that it leaves Hamas in charge. That's a huge problem.
    - miracle2k 2y ago
      They had a choice every single time they dropped a bomb! In fact, "the IDF is the most moral army in the world" supporters would like us to believe that very often, they chose not to. If they want credit for the ones not dropped, they need to take responsibility for the ones they did. Not really that hard! This is important because "it's all on Hamas's hands" is really just a refusal to engage with the ethical questions at all. Folks could (and clearly would!) say that, whether one child is killed, or a million. It's just a question of when it becomes untenable to brush the question away. The idea that "this is more or less like any other country would have reacted" is the same trap; this makes Israel no worse or better than any other country, and conveniently means we don't have to ask ourselves about the morality of it all. > If you're Natanyahu on October 8, 2023, and the reports of the Hamas massacres on civilians come in, there is almost no leeway for reacting in a way differently than how the Israeli government and the IDF reacted. Any lack of political leeway to react differently is squarely within Israel's ethical score card. I.e. "Israel as an entity is not responsible for its choices because the entities constituent parts forced those choices" is reductive. > The problem right now with the hostage deal is that it leaves Hamas in charge. That's a huge problem. That this is the current outcome is maybe an indication that your framework of the three possible options (what Israel did + two strawmen) is lacking.
grumple 2y ago
Hamas is a designated terrorist organization by the US, EU, and others. Their stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and their founding charter including language about killing all Jews. They started this war by massacring over a thousand civilians, injuring thousands more, and kidnapping hundreds. They killed people brutally - beheadings with dull tools, rapes, burning people alive. They also continued launching tens of thousands rockets at Israeli civilians for the duration of the war, though it was basically not reported. If Israel did not have the world's best rocket defense, there would be tens of thousands more dead Israeli civilians. IDF is the military branch of an actual state. Likud is a political party. Neither advocate for indiscriminate killing of civilians (though some Likud politicians might, just like the US or any other nation has crazy politicians). "Right to exist" is granted either through law or force. Hamas doesn't have law, doesn't exist within a functioning state, and is illegal by the laws of most nations. IDF isn't. If you actually think there's a moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas, or that Hamas is somehow the moral group here, you really need to learn more. Stop consuming social media, stop reading things on the internet, go buy some books from a diverse array of sources, both pro-Israel and anti-Israel, and maybe you can gleam the truth out of there. It's not a guarantee, but it's your best shot. I really think the TikTok age has amplified insanity where we actually have people asking, "Why does a military get to exist but not terrorists?". For anyone who needs a reminder of how this war started (warning, extremely graphic / not suitable for life): https://www.hamas-massacre.net/ https://www.hamas-massacre.net/

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

throwaway7783 2y ago

I know you are being downvoted (not by me). This is a good question, if all the context and history is removed, and we are only looking at who killed more. I am trying to respond in good faith, but it looks like Hamas is accepted across the world as a terrorist organization for specifically targeting civilians. And as much as I loathe the loss of civilian life at the hands of IDF, this is not a conventional war, and Hamas hiding within civilian populations and tunneling under hospitals is on Hamas and not on IDF. Like it happened in history a million times, Hamas could've surrendered against a superior enemy and and returned hostages, to protect its own citizens. So, that's why Hamas must cease to exist. Not Palestine itself, nor another government in Palestine - just Hamas. They could've stopped it, they didn't. Let me know when IDF/Likud behave like this unprovoked (Yes, I know what's going on in West bank and its not remotely close to what Hamas did)

steinvakt2 2y ago
> Hamas could've surrendered against a superior enemy and and returned hostages, to protect its own citizens. And then Israel would keep occupying more and more land, control their water, electricity, treat Palestinian people like sub-humans, occasionally shoot some children in the head, take palestinian hostages/prisoners without legal right (occasionally tortue and rape them). What do you do then? Protest peacefully?
- Aloisius 2y ago
  > What do you do then? Protest peacefully? Actually attempting to attack legitimate military targets seems like a bare minimum we should demand of pretty much everyone.
- GuB-42 2y ago
  > What do you do then? Protest peacefully? Yes. What has violence solved here? Thousands of people have died, and Palestinians are not treated better. I am no sure what peaceful protests would have done, but "nothing" is still way better than what we have now.
  - steinvakt2 2y ago
    You should apply that logic to Israel, since they are by far the most violent.
    - GuB-42 2y ago
      The logic should apply to both, there are no good guys here, just two armies of savages fighting each other and people getting killed, including innocents that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I pointed out Palestine because Israel is in a dominant position, so it is unlikely that they would want to protest, peacefully or not. But it would be nice to see more "peace-and-love" movements like in the 60s that opposed the Vietnam war, among other things.
      - steinvakt2 2y ago
        I think that's a naive and ignorant position considering what has been going on since 1948 (violence from both sides, yes, but effectively an apartheid-state with more and more illegal occupations).

regularization 2y ago

Especially since Netanyahu was trying to revive Hamas prior to Hamas's attack, in order to starve off Fatah's Palestinian recognition efforts at the UN, according to the New York Times ( https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-q... ) Turn on Israeli TV and they're showing the IDF raping prisoners in Sde Teiman. Degenerate behavior from the self-described Jewish state. The US taxpayer is paying the bills for all this bloodshed.

culi 2y ago
And at the same time Netanyahu was holding up maps of all of historical Palestine colored in and labelled as Israel. Clearly trying to provoke things

knowitnone 2y ago

[flagged]

smashah 2y ago
That's not how dropping 2000lb American bombs from American F-35s by an Israeli flying vampires paid for by American tax dollars onto babies in refugee tents work. The Nazi demons at Auschwitz also blamed their victims in between zyklon B top-up shifts.

Sabinus 2y ago

>IDF or Likud The IDF and Likud does not have a policy of attacking civilians to achieve political or war goals. They likely have some deranged and radicalized commanders who do this anyway, but it's not the organizational policy.

bbqfog 2y ago
The IDF and Likud literally just killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria and Yemen.
- throwaway7783 2y ago
  [flagged]
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  Is this difference because Hamas values human lives more or because they lack strength to do more harm?
- Auracle 2y ago
  If some really weak person kept trying to kill you by punching you in the face would you hold your own punch back to only hurt them the same amount or would you absolutely deck them?
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  Why give credit to the paper tiger for not killing? It is unable to.
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  And literally zero members of Hamas. It's fascinating how all the population of Palestine consists exclusively of child journalists.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
They spent a year bombing an inhabited city into rubble, killing tens of thousands of civilians. Whatever definition of "policy" you're using here isn't particularly useful I don't think.

hirvi74 2y ago

I mean, realistically speaking, the IDF is a powerful force, while Hamas is not. Israel has the ability to completely take over Gaza, but Gaza does not have the ability to take over Israel. So, as macabre as it may be, Hamas' right to exist, technically speaking, is controlled by Israel. (All of this assuming no outside intervention for 3rd-party nations or groups of nations, of course.)

ajmurmann 2y ago
And let's not forget that the IDF previously removed Jewish inhabitants from Gaza to appease Hamas. Totally unimaginable the other way around.

Niten 2y ago

Hamas is a terrorist, Islamist organization with the explicit goal of genocide against Israelis: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha... The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands.

miracle2k 2y ago
> The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Thousands of Palestinians children are dead, and for every single one, Israel could have chosen not to kill them, and the decision to do so is on them.
- jonathanstrange 2y ago
  They had no choice. If you're Natanyahu on October 8, 2023, and the reports of the Hamas massacres on civilians come in, there is almost no leeway for reacting in a way differently than how the Israeli government and the IDF reacted. What I've heard from "pro-Palestine" (= pro Hamas) supporters as alternatives so far was utterly unconvincing, basically variations of the following: - The "Israel should disband itself" reply: Give in to terrorists' demands, give them their country, and humbly negotiated for a freeing of the hostages without any military response. Hamas remains in charge as military dictatorship of Gaza. - The military genius reply: I would have sent only special forces to Gaza to go after the Hamas leadership and free all hostages. No civilians would have been harmed and all collateral damage is avoided. Neither of these are even remotely realistic. What was ordered and how events unfolded was more or less like any other country would have reacted. Two goals: #1 Destroy Hamas, #2 Free the hostages. The problem right now with the hostage deal is that it leaves Hamas in charge. That's a huge problem.
  - miracle2k 2y ago
    They had a choice every single time they dropped a bomb! In fact, "the IDF is the most moral army in the world" supporters would like us to believe that very often, they chose not to. If they want credit for the ones not dropped, they need to take responsibility for the ones they did. Not really that hard! This is important because "it's all on Hamas's hands" is really just a refusal to engage with the ethical questions at all. Folks could (and clearly would!) say that, whether one child is killed, or a million. It's just a question of when it becomes untenable to brush the question away. The idea that "this is more or less like any other country would have reacted" is the same trap; this makes Israel no worse or better than any other country, and conveniently means we don't have to ask ourselves about the morality of it all. > If you're Natanyahu on October 8, 2023, and the reports of the Hamas massacres on civilians come in, there is almost no leeway for reacting in a way differently than how the Israeli government and the IDF reacted. Any lack of political leeway to react differently is squarely within Israel's ethical score card. I.e. "Israel as an entity is not responsible for its choices because the entities constituent parts forced those choices" is reductive. > The problem right now with the hostage deal is that it leaves Hamas in charge. That's a huge problem. That this is the current outcome is maybe an indication that your framework of the three possible options (what Israel did + two strawmen) is lacking.

grumple 2y ago

Hamas is a designated terrorist organization by the US, EU, and others. Their stated purpose is to destroy Israel, and their founding charter including language about killing all Jews. They started this war by massacring over a thousand civilians, injuring thousands more, and kidnapping hundreds. They killed people brutally - beheadings with dull tools, rapes, burning people alive. They also continued launching tens of thousands rockets at Israeli civilians for the duration of the war, though it was basically not reported. If Israel did not have the world's best rocket defense, there would be tens of thousands more dead Israeli civilians. IDF is the military branch of an actual state. Likud is a political party. Neither advocate for indiscriminate killing of civilians (though some Likud politicians might, just like the US or any other nation has crazy politicians). "Right to exist" is granted either through law or force. Hamas doesn't have law, doesn't exist within a functioning state, and is illegal by the laws of most nations. IDF isn't. If you actually think there's a moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas, or that Hamas is somehow the moral group here, you really need to learn more. Stop consuming social media, stop reading things on the internet, go buy some books from a diverse array of sources, both pro-Israel and anti-Israel, and maybe you can gleam the truth out of there. It's not a guarantee, but it's your best shot. I really think the TikTok age has amplified insanity where we actually have people asking, "Why does a military get to exist but not terrorists?". For anyone who needs a reminder of how this war started (warning, extremely graphic / not suitable for life): https://www.hamas-massacre.net/ https://www.hamas-massacre.net/