4 ms·

Probably the most efficient way of creating multiple generations of anger and hate is letting a radical terrorist movement control 2 million people, which can c

by breppp 2y ago

Probably the most efficient way of creating multiple generations of anger and hate is letting a radical terrorist movement control 2 million people, which can completely mold the education curriculum and free to draft anyone to their quasi-army So whatever it has done, it cannot possibly be worse than pre-war

whatshisface 2y ago
What could a radical terrorist organization possibily tell Gazans about what happened to their parents that sounds worse than the truth?
- IncreasePosts 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    Right but the truth is that they were just standing in the wrong building or couldn't go without food for long enough, they're going to find out something that simple no matter who runs the schools.
- breppp 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - jedimind 2y ago
    >something that would cause civilians on oct 7 join en masse a fest of rape there is 0 evidence for "mass rape" on oct7, this has been debunked. Every one of your accusations is a confession: "Israel: UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls." “We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online." https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un...
  - archagon 2y ago
    Somehow it’s considered monstrous to brutally slaughter 1000 Israelis by hand, but OK to murder and starve an order of magnitude (or two) more Gazan civilians using industrialized warfare. I guess if you’re a drone operator with no strong feelings about the murder you’re committing, then it’s totally ethical to do whatever you want as long as some Hamas get hit. What a fantastic cheat code!
    - cbeach 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - archagon 2y ago
        I’m only pointing out the cruel hypocrisy that a missile blowing up a hospital is somehow considered more ethical than a slit throat.
        breppp 2y ago
        When going house to house in a town and murdering everyone inside your goal is murdering civilians When bombing a military target and hitting civilians around him, your goal is the military target This is both different from an international law as well as a moral standpoint
        Sabinus 2y ago
        Intentions matter. Bombing a hospital with terrorists operating out of it is a very different act to deliberately and directly targeting civilians for murder and hostage taking.
        GordonS 2y ago
        True... but where were the terrorists? Where was the evidence? Apart from the ludicrous 3D animation that was created before Israel destroyed the first hospital, I haven't seen so much as a shred of credible evidence. Oh, apart from the Arabic calendar that was totally a list of hostages. Nobody seriously believes that every single hospital in Gaza was a hotbed of terrorist activity, especially without evidence. What we have seen, is the IDF illegally setup bases of operation in Gazan hospitals though!
- leptons 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    [flagged]
- Tainnor 2y ago
  Something like this maybe? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers
  - oa335 2y ago
    I see that one show cited a lot - What in particular about that television show was problematic and “worse” than what Gazans have endured over the past 15 months? Also, how does that compare with Israeli schoolchildren singing about destroying Gaza? https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-sing... What sort of military solutions and violence, if any, should be employed to root out that sort of extremism?
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      > Nahoul lectures to the audience that "we will liberate Al-Aqsa from the filth of the criminal Jews." [...] Later, Izz Al-Din from Ramallah calls in and Nahoul suggests that "we will go on Jihad when we grow up > Nassur and Saraa have a disagreement about what the "expulsion" of the "Jews or Zionists" means. Saraa adopts the argument that they should be "chased away" and that "we don't want to do anything to them, just expel them from our land." Nassur, on the other hand, endorses the view that they should be "erased" and that "we want to slaughter them so they will be expelled from our land." Saraa eventually concedes, and the two compromised that "we will expel them from our land using all means, and if they don't want to go peacefully, by words or talking, we'll have to do it by slaughter." No, it's not problematic at all.
      - whatshisface 2y ago
        You know that thousands of children have been killed now right? I'm counting the Israeli children along with the Gazan children. There is no basis for this kind of comparison now that the leadership of both countries have revealed themselves as murderers. Let's have a sense of proportion here...
        2y ago
oa335 2y ago
> letting a radical terrorist movement control 2 million people, which can completely mold the education curriculum and free to draft anyone to their quasi-army “Terrorist” groups Irgun, Haganah, Lehi all became part of Israeli government and army post 1948. Israel has mandatory military service for its citizens.
- breppp 2y ago
  Haganah was a paramilitary organization formed after a few rather violent massacres of the Jewish population in the 1920s, climaxing with the Hebron massacre in 1929 which included horrors similar to October 7, hence why it's name in Hebrew is "Defense". Except for a short stint of a few months of something in between guerilla warfare and terror attacks against the British, it was mainly a military organization foremost, tasked with defense of the Jewish population from Palestinian attacks until the 1948 war Irgun and Lehi were both offshoots which can be categorized as terror organizations, however they were very small, with a few hundred members and never reached the size or level of support of any Palestinian organization While the Haganah formed most of the IDF leadership, the new country civilian leadership was based on the Jewish Agency which predated the Haganah and had completely civilian leadership. There are many other differences between Hamas and these organizations, but in general this is an invalid comparison
  - oa335 2y ago
    I believe the comparison is valid - I put "terrorist" in quotes for a reason. All three groups at times participated in violent activities targeting the British, Arabs, and even at times other Jews. Haganah was proscribed by the British mandate and was an unlawful, underground militia. Lehi had 100s of members but Irgun had 4000-8000. You yourself admit that Lehi and Irgun could be categorized as "terrorist" and Haganah engaged in what you describe as "something in between guerilla warfare and terror attacks". The British certainly thought of all three as "terrorist" groups, which is why they targeted them with military and police action - https://israeled.org/british-round-up-resistance-fighters/ https://israeled.org/british-round-up-resistance-fighters/ Hamas would also not describe themselves as "terrorist", they also describe themselves as a "resistance" movement. Haganah both planned and executed the "Plan Dalet", which killed and forcibly expelled the vast majority of non-Jews from their lands - they actually did what people accuse Hamas of wanting to do.
verdverm 2y ago
I'm not trying to say if it is better or worse. Perhaps a better phrasing is "Israel has solidified another 2 generations of hatred by how they prosecuted the war." Leveling a country, killing and maiming as many as they did, the indiscriminate nature and war crimes, these things worked against their stated goals in the long-term

by breppp 2y ago

whatshisface 2y ago

What could a radical terrorist organization possibily tell Gazans about what happened to their parents that sounds worse than the truth?

IncreasePosts 2y ago
[flagged]
- whatshisface 2y ago
  Right but the truth is that they were just standing in the wrong building or couldn't go without food for long enough, they're going to find out something that simple no matter who runs the schools.
breppp 2y ago
[flagged]
- jedimind 2y ago
  >something that would cause civilians on oct 7 join en masse a fest of rape there is 0 evidence for "mass rape" on oct7, this has been debunked. Every one of your accusations is a confession: "Israel: UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls." “We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online." https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un...
- archagon 2y ago
  Somehow it’s considered monstrous to brutally slaughter 1000 Israelis by hand, but OK to murder and starve an order of magnitude (or two) more Gazan civilians using industrialized warfare. I guess if you’re a drone operator with no strong feelings about the murder you’re committing, then it’s totally ethical to do whatever you want as long as some Hamas get hit. What a fantastic cheat code!
  - cbeach 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - archagon 2y ago
      I’m only pointing out the cruel hypocrisy that a missile blowing up a hospital is somehow considered more ethical than a slit throat.
      - breppp 2y ago
        When going house to house in a town and murdering everyone inside your goal is murdering civilians When bombing a military target and hitting civilians around him, your goal is the military target This is both different from an international law as well as a moral standpoint
      - Sabinus 2y ago
        Intentions matter. Bombing a hospital with terrorists operating out of it is a very different act to deliberately and directly targeting civilians for murder and hostage taking.
        GordonS 2y ago
        True... but where were the terrorists? Where was the evidence? Apart from the ludicrous 3D animation that was created before Israel destroyed the first hospital, I haven't seen so much as a shred of credible evidence. Oh, apart from the Arabic calendar that was totally a list of hostages. Nobody seriously believes that every single hospital in Gaza was a hotbed of terrorist activity, especially without evidence. What we have seen, is the IDF illegally setup bases of operation in Gazan hospitals though!
leptons 2y ago
[flagged]
- whatshisface 2y ago
  [flagged]
Tainnor 2y ago
Something like this maybe? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow's_Pioneers
- oa335 2y ago
  I see that one show cited a lot - What in particular about that television show was problematic and “worse” than what Gazans have endured over the past 15 months? Also, how does that compare with Israeli schoolchildren singing about destroying Gaza? https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-singing-annihilate-gaza/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/20/israeli-children-sing... What sort of military solutions and violence, if any, should be employed to root out that sort of extremism?
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    > Nahoul lectures to the audience that "we will liberate Al-Aqsa from the filth of the criminal Jews." [...] Later, Izz Al-Din from Ramallah calls in and Nahoul suggests that "we will go on Jihad when we grow up > Nassur and Saraa have a disagreement about what the "expulsion" of the "Jews or Zionists" means. Saraa adopts the argument that they should be "chased away" and that "we don't want to do anything to them, just expel them from our land." Nassur, on the other hand, endorses the view that they should be "erased" and that "we want to slaughter them so they will be expelled from our land." Saraa eventually concedes, and the two compromised that "we will expel them from our land using all means, and if they don't want to go peacefully, by words or talking, we'll have to do it by slaughter." No, it's not problematic at all.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      You know that thousands of children have been killed now right? I'm counting the Israeli children along with the Gazan children. There is no basis for this kind of comparison now that the leadership of both countries have revealed themselves as murderers. Let's have a sense of proportion here...
      - 2y ago

oa335 2y ago

> letting a radical terrorist movement control 2 million people, which can completely mold the education curriculum and free to draft anyone to their quasi-army “Terrorist” groups Irgun, Haganah, Lehi all became part of Israeli government and army post 1948. Israel has mandatory military service for its citizens.

breppp 2y ago
Haganah was a paramilitary organization formed after a few rather violent massacres of the Jewish population in the 1920s, climaxing with the Hebron massacre in 1929 which included horrors similar to October 7, hence why it's name in Hebrew is "Defense". Except for a short stint of a few months of something in between guerilla warfare and terror attacks against the British, it was mainly a military organization foremost, tasked with defense of the Jewish population from Palestinian attacks until the 1948 war Irgun and Lehi were both offshoots which can be categorized as terror organizations, however they were very small, with a few hundred members and never reached the size or level of support of any Palestinian organization While the Haganah formed most of the IDF leadership, the new country civilian leadership was based on the Jewish Agency which predated the Haganah and had completely civilian leadership. There are many other differences between Hamas and these organizations, but in general this is an invalid comparison
- oa335 2y ago
  I believe the comparison is valid - I put "terrorist" in quotes for a reason. All three groups at times participated in violent activities targeting the British, Arabs, and even at times other Jews. Haganah was proscribed by the British mandate and was an unlawful, underground militia. Lehi had 100s of members but Irgun had 4000-8000. You yourself admit that Lehi and Irgun could be categorized as "terrorist" and Haganah engaged in what you describe as "something in between guerilla warfare and terror attacks". The British certainly thought of all three as "terrorist" groups, which is why they targeted them with military and police action - https://israeled.org/british-round-up-resistance-fighters/ https://israeled.org/british-round-up-resistance-fighters/ Hamas would also not describe themselves as "terrorist", they also describe themselves as a "resistance" movement. Haganah both planned and executed the "Plan Dalet", which killed and forcibly expelled the vast majority of non-Jews from their lands - they actually did what people accuse Hamas of wanting to do.

verdverm 2y ago

I'm not trying to say if it is better or worse. Perhaps a better phrasing is "Israel has solidified another 2 generations of hatred by how they prosecuted the war." Leveling a country, killing and maiming as many as they did, the indiscriminate nature and war crimes, these things worked against their stated goals in the long-term