9 ms·
2k-year-old wine and the uncanny immediacy of the past
- bglazer 2y agoNice article about artifacts that make the past more immediate, that allow us to connect our experiences to people hundreds or thousands of years ago. My favorite example is the writings of Onfim, who was a little boy in the 1200s in present day Russia whose scribbling and homework were exquisitely preserved on birch bark fragments. It’s so immediately recognizable as a little boy’s endearing doodles about knights and imaginary beasts, yet its 800 years old. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onfim https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onfim
- morkalork 2y agoI like the adorable animal shaped sippy cups for babies: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/science/prehistoric-baby-bottles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/science/prehistoric-baby-...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- romanhn 2y agoWow, haven't seen this before, thank you. Amazing that the writing can still be read by a modern reader (that said, really helps to know what it's supposed to say though). The note I found most relatable is the one with greetings to his classmate.
- ge96 2y agoDo some eyebrows convey emotion or coincidence? (near bottom of page) Edit: I'm also curious how much time (thousands of years) for there to be noticeable difference in the capability of the brain like abstract thinking. Language may be the real problem.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago> I'm also curious how much time (thousands of years) for there to be noticeable difference in the capability of the brain like abstract thinking. It's not thousands of years. French Canadians are enriched for some of the same brain-related defects that Ashkenazi Jews can get; we assume for the same reasons.
- Vampiero 2y agoWhich defects? What reasons? Who is assuming?
- thaumasiotes 2y agoYou know, you can just look these things up. This isn't some piece of obscure trivia. > Which defects? Ashkenazi Jews are prone to a whole host of genetic defects that affect the brain, of which the most famous is Tay-Sachs. > What reasons? A lifestyle focused on commerce as opposed to foraging or agriculture. > Who is assuming? Everyone, basically. In the case of the Ashkenazi Jews, as far as we can tell they've been like that for as long as records of the group have existed. But the French Canadian specialization in commerce postdates the discovery of North America.
- DiggyJohnson 2y agoUhhhh what?
- methyl 2y agoI’ve had similar feeling when realizing that the bells that we sometimes hear in old cities of Europe are exact same bells producing exact same sound as 1000 years ago
- zehaeva 2y agoSimilarly, when I read Meditations by Marcus Aurelius I was struck by how normal everything seemed. While he was an Emperor the everyday banality of what he talked about going through 2,000 years ago was amazing. Humans really haven't changed that much at all.
- thesz 2y ago> Humans really haven't changed that much at all. I guess you are quoting Woland from The Master and Margarita [1], the words he said in a show at the Variety theater. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_and_Margarita Woland is the Satan in the novel. What he said has a deeper meaning, but superficial one is most probably wrong.
- willy_k 2y agoI think they’re just saying that humans haven’t really changed much at all, if I had to guess they weren’t referencing any one quote. The only thing that’s really changed is the tools we can use, but we’ve made little (some would say backwards compared to certain reference points) progress in why and what we use them for.
- jazzyjackson 2y agoI don't know that OP was quoting a Russian satire but I'm glad you turned me onto the book, I never would have heard of it but sounds intriguing. There's a wealth of covers to choose from on eBay, Goodreads lists over 1,200 editions. I got the one with the cat holding the playing cards smoking a cigar while a topless woman sails past the moon on a flying pig. at least I think it's a pig. Published in '97 by Picador.
- voihannena 2y agoIt's such a great book, both hilarious and sad at times. I also went to eBay to search for a copy before realizing I already own the book.
- thaumasiotes 2y agoI like the extreme modesty in the wikipedia article: > One of the drawings features a knight on a horse, with Onfim's name written next to him, stabbing someone on the ground with a lance, with scholars speculating that Onfim pictured himself as the knight.
- edgarvaldes 2y agoNot as old, but I loved reading about this: 350 year old paper cuttings found under Sutton House floorboards go on display [0] It really feels immediate [0] https://museumsandheritage.com/advisor/posts/350-year-old-paper-cuttings-found-under-sutton-house-floorboards-go-on-display/ https://museumsandheritage.com/advisor/posts/350-year-old-pa...
- gunian 2y agoKids had school 800 years ago? If he didn't work in the fields musta been rich insert David Lynch quote about red ants
- bearded_comrade 2y agoIt seems like that region had a particularly high literacy rate. Texts from all classes and genders were found. The kid could have been a peasant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic#Literature_and_literacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic#Literature_a...
- gunian 2y agoHow likely is that vs works written by the rich folk survive? A cursory GPT search implies not a lot of medieval works written by poor people in general
- int_19h 2y agoThe point is that it's not your average medieval polity. Novgorod was a merchant republic in which literacy was seemingly held in high esteem in and of itself, resulting in a social pressure to acquire it. And then on top of that they had access to plenty of birch bark, which happens to be a very convenient and cheap writing material where it's available, and does not require any ink or fancy tools to use; just a sharp stylus. As far as survival, because of how common birch bark notes were in Novgorod, they were used for mundane everyday matters like instructions to servants to purchase such and such goods, or even just a one-liner greeting, and a lot of those were then discarded and ended up buried underground. So, again, a very different slice compared to the more typical story of expensive manuscripts in libraries, or personal correspondence of nobility.
- gunian 2y agoIt would be cool to study if the social pressure was applicable to servants or just the elite ruling class Do you have any idea where to get photos of collections?
- internet_points 2y agoOr the rune-rods which were "the medieval snapchat" https://www.nrk.no/vestland/gamle_-norske-ord-for-kjonnsorgan-funnet-pa-runepinne-pa-bryggen-i-bergen-1.16983695 https://www.nrk.no/vestland/gamle_-norske-ord-for-kjonnsorga... (google translate isn't half bad on this article) or a more PG version https://sprakprat.no/2017/06/22/middelalderkvinner-og-runekunnskap/ https://sprakprat.no/2017/06/22/middelalderkvinner-og-runeku... where a rune-rod simply says "Gyda says you have to come home" (I guess hubby had been out too late with his no-good friends?)
- sriacha 2y agoWonderful, here's another similar example I saw recently, 14000 year old cave art doodling by kids: https://www.science.org/content/article/enigmatic-cave-art-was-made-ice-age-children https://www.science.org/content/article/enigmatic-cave-art-w...
- abeppu 2y agoThe inscription on the Sword of Goujian, the translation for which is displayed in the article, says that the King of Yue made and used the sword himself. How literally do people with knowledge of the period take that? Is it surprising / unlikely for a king of that period to make anything themselves, especially something so ornate, rather than commission it?
- tokai 2y agoWell kings have always said they made/build anything they ordered. I would simply not believe Yue's claim. It's much like the things Wolfram "creates".
- rsynnott 2y agoWell, everyone needs a hobby :) Here's another one, different king, similar inscription: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Fuchai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear_of_Fuchai - seems likely it should be read more as "caused this to be made".
- codemonkey-zeta 2y agoJulius Caesar made the dang calendar. People had a lot of free time.
- rsynnott 2y agoThat was kind of his job (as pontifex maximus), tho.
- scottLobster 2y agoWhen you have some sort of divine right to rule, the most money, a palace filled with servants and responsibilities that can be neglected with no immediate consequences, well you have a lot of free time. That said, while it's possible this King was really into swordsmithing, more likely he's just taking credit for the work or something gets lost in the translation. Like if Elon said he "built the Falcon 9". It's not explicitly true, he certainly wasn't machining parts or writing code for it, but he was involved enough that no one would really call it a lie either.
- dmix 2y agoThe bakers stamp on the bread is interesting branding https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F191d0a22-adf5-4b85-9075-bb421ec923a8_1629x1343.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_...
- LeftHandPath 2y agoIt is! I found the sword quite fascinating as well. The older Chinese lettering on it looks really neat, too
- Aloha 2y agoI think it was the equivalent of a tax stamp
- binarycrusader 2y agoMy recollection from a previous article was that in many cases, ovens were communal, so the mark was so that they knew which items belonged to a particular baker: https://wheatbeat.com/bread-stamps/ https://wheatbeat.com/bread-stamps/
- pezezin 2y agoThat is correct. In my home country, Spain, such ovens still exist, although nowadays they are few and far between. The few people who still use them keep signing their bread, a tradition that goes back to at least the Ancient Egypt. You can read a bit more in this Wikipedia article (no English version, sorry) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sello_de_pan https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sello_de_pan
- dmix 2y agoInteresting, do you have to stamp it at a certain point in the baking process? I'm guessing after it expands at a certain point
- mcswell 2y ago41 AD was a very good year.
- insane_dreamer 2y agoWhile the tomb was sealed it wasn't a vacuum, so how did the liquid not evaporate over time?
- Karellen 2y agoLooking at the images in the article, I think c), d) and e) in the first group, and the close-up image a couple of paragraphs later, are all the same item. So. e) looks like d) with a top covering taken off. And, from the curved "handles" visible in c), e) and the close-up, they could all be the same glass vessel. We can see in c) that the vessel does have a lid. In e) and the close-up, there appears to be a residue where the lid rested against the container. So it's possible that liquid from the jar got to the join, evaporated, and left behind a substance that sealed the container against further evaporation? You'd probably have to read the full report for an actual explanation, but that's my guess from what's reported in the linked article itself.
- chrisco255 2y agoThe vessel was probably sealed intentionally by the Romans. They certainly knew how to seal wine and glass containers. But it was also in a lead case and the tomb itself was sealed allowing for very little air transfer over the years.
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- thom 2y agoI agree these objects (just like colourised photos) help bridge the distance to the past. But I've had the same experience purely with text. If you read Cicero's letters and diaries, and then just imagine him - suffering writer's block, wracked with anxiety and self-doubt, desperate for his friends to cheer him up - as a neurotic, terminally-online Twitter user, it fits perfectly and breathes life into his every word.
- teddyh 2y agoIt is always fascinating when Americans re-discover that old things actually exist. But, as they say, an American thinks that 100 years is a long time while a European thinks that 100 miles is a long way.
- dang 2y agoPlease don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN. That's a pretty insulting variant of it. (I love the adage you quote, though. When I first heard it it said "Canadian" and "Englishman", which probably says something about how far back it goes.)
- poulpy123 2y agoI didn't even notice the author was American. You don't need to be one to be fascinated by archaeology.
- teddyh 2y agoNo, but the absolute riveted fascination with the fact that historical things actually exist (as clearly exhibited by the featured article) is, in my experience, uniquely American. Most of the people in the rest of the world are surrounded in their daily lives by ancient things; if not buildings, then monuments, castle ruins, petroglyphs, etc. But it is not unusual to hear Americans say things like “someone once died in this house!”.
- ThinkingGuy 2y agoOne of the most interesting parts of Pompeii for me was seeing the area where they've restored a vineyard, to the point of planting the rows of vines in the exact spots that held vines 2000 years ago. While large areas of the city consists of ruins of buildings that you kind of have to infer the layout of from the floorplans, the vineyard was the one of the spots where I most felt like I was looking back in time, and seeing the spot more-or-less as it would have looked in 79CE.
- duskwuff 2y agoOne interesting recent discovery at Pompeii was what appears to have been, for all intents and purposes, a fast food restaurant - complete with a serving counter set up much like a modern-day steam table. Many of the original wall paintings are intact - it's not hard to imagine what it would have looked like, and it's surprisingly familiar. https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/archaeologists-excavate-ancient-roman-takeout-counter-at-pompeii/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/12/archaeologists-excav...
- gunian 2y agoMake fast food great again respect the ancestors
- sedatk 2y ago"All this has happened before, and all this will happen again" --Battlestar Galactica (originally from Peter Pan though)
- taneliv 2y ago"What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun."[1] from Ecclesiastes 1:9. Apparently the quote not only describes the phenomenon, but has become witness to itself. [1] https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16462/jewish/Chapter-1.htm https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16462/jewish/Ch...
- dyauspitr 2y agoJust as it was before, so it will be again. -Vashista The same events will repeat in every Yuga -Vishnu Purana (1.3.1-2)
- NL807 2y agoHow on earth did the wine not evaporate out of the vessel over such a long period of time?
- chrisco255 2y agoThe vessel was made of glass and airtight. It was also in a lead case in a sealed tomb underground.
- NL807 2y agoBut what made it airtight? Even a small leak could eventually cause the liquid to degas over the period of 2000 years?
- paulg2222 2y ago[dead]
- CyberDildonics 2y agoI can't wait to read about the uncanny immediacy of the unreasonable effectiveness of the timeless aesthetic of the past.
- pea 2y agoI'm curious how dangerous it would be to drink the wine?
- temp0826 2y agoWine? More likely vinegar I'd guess
- postexitus 2y agoOh mon dieu, since when did Spanish make anything other than vinegar. ah ah ah.
- tmountain 2y agoProbably not that dangerous. The ethanol has likely evaporated leaving behind vinegar and unpleasant byproducts. There’s a risk of mold and bacterial contamination depending on how well the seal has remained intact. Depending on the process used, it’s possible the wine could contain lead salts (for sweetness), which are toxic. I doubt it would kill you, but it’d likely be very unpleasant to drink.
- myrandomcomment 2y agoOMG! The only question is did anyone try it?
- carlob 2y agoAccording to wikipedia: > Analysis of mineral salts in the wine revealed a high concentration of potassium salts, indicative of the cremains in the wine I kinda wanted to try it too before I read this.
- scaglio 2y agoFascinating! The wine discovery reminds me one scene from the book 'The Dark Forest'[0] when the protagonist drinks a wine from some centuries before... spoiler: it wasn't good. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Forest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Forest
- metalman 2y agoThe most profound story of this type is the account of finding a leaf, in 10's of million year old clay, that when exposed, was green, but then very very rapidly oxidised and crumbled.Ref: from somewhere in the great lakes region? 90's mag, likely sciam.Also similar storys of other very ancient soft tissues, somewhat contentious, though it is understood that,unless lithified, ancient organic remains are exceptionaly fragile and do crumble quickly without meticulous and complicated preservation tecniques, the three common reasons for presevation in situ are freezing ,water saturation, or drying/mumification. The shear volume of artifacts that humans have, and are leaving behind, insures plenty of interesting finds availible into the far future.
- throwaway63203 2y agoThere are a few unconfirmed stories about people eating mammoth meat that had been frozen in ice for thousands of years https://strangeanimalspodcast.blubrry.net/2023/12/04/episode-357-when-scientists-ate-mammoth-meat/ https://strangeanimalspodcast.blubrry.net/2023/12/04/episode...
- metalman 2y agoNative indiginous tribes are now taking field trips walking around on melting glaciers, where there are regular finds of artifacts that there ancient ancestors missplaced.Also digs at camp sites, but no digs of graves, as that is not allowed, even the discussion of the deceased is prohibited in native culture.Lost ,forgoten, or abandoned, bieng one thing, deliberatly burried another. But by all accounts the finding of freshly expossed artifacts by native youth has a strong effect on there feelings of conection to the land and there people.
- poulpy123 2y agoThe thing that surprised me the most was to discover that there was patchouli perfume. I always associated it hippies and the hippie trail from the 60s and was thinking it was from Asia
- poulpy123 2y agoAfter checking patchouli is indeed a south Asian plant, that is not endemic from the Mediterranean area, so it's even more fascinating than the wine