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The 'US foreign policy blob' had been warning Germany that basing your energy policy on purchasing fossil fuels (which you are trying to get rid of) from a dict

The 'US foreign policy blob' had been warning Germany that basing your energy policy on purchasing fossil fuels (which you are trying to get rid of) from a dictatorship in the hopes it gets them to play nice was a stupid idea and now Germans are paying the price for poorly thought out foreign policy. Good thing they still have those nuclear plants, right?

kkzz99 2y ago
Its funny because from the perspective of Germany, Russia was always a good partner in trade with a win-win situation. But can't rely on your allies not to blow up our infrastructure. The US has always behaved like a bully and a Mafia boss. No matter how low you bow, if Master wants to whip you, he will.
martin_a 2y ago
Energy prices are down a lot from their former maximum [1] and have been replaced by lots of renewable sources, which will pay off long term. Hard price to pay, but it had to be paid at some time. Would have surely been nicer if it had been a slower switch, but former governments didn't want that to happen. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267541/germany-monthly-wholesale-electricity-price/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267541/germany-monthly-... [2] https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterprises/Energy/Production/Tables/gross-electricity-production.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris...
qdwejh 2y ago
If the U.S. had had a moderate Ukraine policy, none of this would have happened. Instead, Germany's energy policy is now based on U.S. dependency in the hope that the U.S. will play nice. Which it does not.
- ckozlowski 2y ago
  The thing that gets me with arguments such as this is that it talks right over the heads of the Ukrainians like they don't matter. "Oh, the U.S. should moderate it's policy." "NATO shouldn't be pushing East." "The West didn't listen." I hear the same sentiment around the Baltic states: "NATO shouldn't have pushed in, and that angered Putin." Give it up for those repeating those misconceptions and making the argument into one where NATO is pushing, or the U.S. isn't being "moderate" enough with regards to Ukrainian sovereignty. Talk to the Ukrainians, the Lithuanians and Estonians, the Poles, and the Finns. And they'll all tell you the same: It's been Russian imperialism for centuries, be it under the guise of the USSR or Tzar or the current president for life. They don't want to give up their land and populations to become part of Russia's empire. And just a very cursory glance at history will pull examples of this. Finland lost it's second largest city in the 40s, and is still without it. The Baltics and Ukraine only became free in the 90s. The Poles went through multiple stretches of time where they were divide up and didn't exist. Your country gets invaded one day, the occupied lands vacated of their residents, the children re-homed in families elsewhere, but you'd tell them to "moderate" their policy? That further more, they shouldn't be allowed to seek alliances? If someone invaded the U.S., I seriously doubt that line of opinion would obtain support anywhere. It's not about U.S. policy. It's about Ukraine wanting to be independent and Russia wanting it as part of theirs. Simple as that. Don't ask the U.S. about Ukrainian policy like the Ukrainians aren't there. Have some respect, and ask the Ukrainians what they want. Then I dare you to tell them to moderate it.
  - rhatsf 2y ago
    Of course the Ukrainians matter. That is why they should have accepted the Istanbul agreement (confirmed by Naftali Bennett and not the Russians) after the illegal and horrible Russian invasion instead of fighting a U.S. proxy war and dying for nothing.
    - ckozlowski 2y ago
      You mean this one that he walked back? https://web.archive.org/web/20241213114710/https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-bennett-walks-back-claim-west-blocked-ukraine-russia-peace-deal-2023-2#expand https://web.archive.org/web/20241213114710/https://www.busin... How is it a proxy war? Again, you frame your argument as though is the U.S. driving everything, and that the Ukrainians have no agency or say. On one hand, you take shots at the U.S. as running roughshod over other country's wishes, and yet in your very same argument, deny that these nations have any say of their own. Try this one on: The Ukrainians don't want to stop fighting, because they want their land and people back. They were given a security guarantee once, handed over their nuclear weapons as part of it, and that guarantee was ignored. They're not going to be burned twice. If I were a Ukrainian, I'd find it rather insulting to be told that I was "dying for nothing" and that my country's sovereignty didn't matter, and that furthermore, I wasn't part of a real country (as Putin attests) but just some U.S. puppet.
      - corimaith 2y ago
        It's quite obvious there a Russian shills all over this thread...
    - rat87 2y ago
      Ukraine refused it because they couldn't trust the Russians especially after the Bucha massacre. How is it a proxy war?
- rat87 2y ago
  Germany has a much stronger reason to want Russia to lose then the US does. Germany is closer to most of Russia and other EU countries are next door. Germany is still in the EU and claims a sort of leadership role in the EU

kkzz99 2y ago

Its funny because from the perspective of Germany, Russia was always a good partner in trade with a win-win situation. But can't rely on your allies not to blow up our infrastructure. The US has always behaved like a bully and a Mafia boss. No matter how low you bow, if Master wants to whip you, he will.

martin_a 2y ago

Energy prices are down a lot from their former maximum [1] and have been replaced by lots of renewable sources, which will pay off long term. Hard price to pay, but it had to be paid at some time. Would have surely been nicer if it had been a slower switch, but former governments didn't want that to happen. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267541/germany-monthly-wholesale-electricity-price/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1267541/germany-monthly-... [2] https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterprises/Energy/Production/Tables/gross-electricity-production.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Economic-Sectors-Enterpris...

qdwejh 2y ago

If the U.S. had had a moderate Ukraine policy, none of this would have happened. Instead, Germany's energy policy is now based on U.S. dependency in the hope that the U.S. will play nice. Which it does not.

ckozlowski 2y ago
The thing that gets me with arguments such as this is that it talks right over the heads of the Ukrainians like they don't matter. "Oh, the U.S. should moderate it's policy." "NATO shouldn't be pushing East." "The West didn't listen." I hear the same sentiment around the Baltic states: "NATO shouldn't have pushed in, and that angered Putin." Give it up for those repeating those misconceptions and making the argument into one where NATO is pushing, or the U.S. isn't being "moderate" enough with regards to Ukrainian sovereignty. Talk to the Ukrainians, the Lithuanians and Estonians, the Poles, and the Finns. And they'll all tell you the same: It's been Russian imperialism for centuries, be it under the guise of the USSR or Tzar or the current president for life. They don't want to give up their land and populations to become part of Russia's empire. And just a very cursory glance at history will pull examples of this. Finland lost it's second largest city in the 40s, and is still without it. The Baltics and Ukraine only became free in the 90s. The Poles went through multiple stretches of time where they were divide up and didn't exist. Your country gets invaded one day, the occupied lands vacated of their residents, the children re-homed in families elsewhere, but you'd tell them to "moderate" their policy? That further more, they shouldn't be allowed to seek alliances? If someone invaded the U.S., I seriously doubt that line of opinion would obtain support anywhere. It's not about U.S. policy. It's about Ukraine wanting to be independent and Russia wanting it as part of theirs. Simple as that. Don't ask the U.S. about Ukrainian policy like the Ukrainians aren't there. Have some respect, and ask the Ukrainians what they want. Then I dare you to tell them to moderate it.
- rhatsf 2y ago
  Of course the Ukrainians matter. That is why they should have accepted the Istanbul agreement (confirmed by Naftali Bennett and not the Russians) after the illegal and horrible Russian invasion instead of fighting a U.S. proxy war and dying for nothing.
  - ckozlowski 2y ago
    You mean this one that he walked back? https://web.archive.org/web/20241213114710/https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-bennett-walks-back-claim-west-blocked-ukraine-russia-peace-deal-2023-2#expand https://web.archive.org/web/20241213114710/https://www.busin... How is it a proxy war? Again, you frame your argument as though is the U.S. driving everything, and that the Ukrainians have no agency or say. On one hand, you take shots at the U.S. as running roughshod over other country's wishes, and yet in your very same argument, deny that these nations have any say of their own. Try this one on: The Ukrainians don't want to stop fighting, because they want their land and people back. They were given a security guarantee once, handed over their nuclear weapons as part of it, and that guarantee was ignored. They're not going to be burned twice. If I were a Ukrainian, I'd find it rather insulting to be told that I was "dying for nothing" and that my country's sovereignty didn't matter, and that furthermore, I wasn't part of a real country (as Putin attests) but just some U.S. puppet.
    - corimaith 2y ago
      It's quite obvious there a Russian shills all over this thread...
  - rat87 2y ago
    Ukraine refused it because they couldn't trust the Russians especially after the Bucha massacre. How is it a proxy war?
rat87 2y ago
Germany has a much stronger reason to want Russia to lose then the US does. Germany is closer to most of Russia and other EU countries are next door. Germany is still in the EU and claims a sort of leadership role in the EU