4 ms·

Totally. I find it very interesting that we tend to criticize China for their protectionism, but as soon as something out-competes US companies, it gets banned:

by palata 2y ago

Totally. I find it very interesting that we tend to criticize China for their protectionism, but as soon as something out-competes US companies, it gets banned: Huawei, DJI, TikTok. Of course it cannot be said like this, because "free speech" and "democracy", so the official reason is "national security".

tonyhart7 2y ago
well china does it too with google,fb etc back then, and other nation do it too albeit not outright banned it all together but sometimes they prefer homegrown company/technology
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  I mean, let's be clear: Facebook and Google are very much banned in Mainland China.
- palata 2y ago
  Sure. I just noted the irony that the US discourse has sounded a lot like "we are better than China, we are more free" for decades.
  - infecto 2y ago
    But we are, there is no irony. China has the great wall and massive corporate espionage games to steal state and corporate secrets. The US and its various federal intelligence agencies have certainly done nefarious things but never quite as documented at the level as China's. They actively monitor all of their Social Media, block most foreign social media. I can easily go to any Chinese social media/website from the US.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    In some ways, this is still true, even surrounding this decision. Do you think there were many people standing outside of government buildings in Beijing protesting the potential ban of Facebook and Google while politicians of different political parties were debating the ban in the country's primary legislative body? Do you think you could launch a campaign for office on repealing said ban in China?
    - antifa 2y ago
      I think they could, and fundamentally won't because they can be accessed via VPN, but ultimately aren't necessary because those companies are not exactly interesting for any purpose but talking to Americans or studying Americans.
      - lenerdenator 2y ago
        That wasn't the case in the late 00s when those hacks happened.
  - shlant 2y ago
    > "we are better than China, we are more free" Anyone who disagrees with this is either not being honest or is not aware of what extent China restricts it's citizens.
    - palata 2y ago
      But wouldn't you say that there is some irony there, still? I see multiple comments saying "shut up, we're not China!", but that's not what I meant :-). I just meant that there is some irony here. And that next time we criticize China's protectionism, we may take a step back and think that we do it too, sometimes.
      - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
        Exactly. One doesn't become their own enemy overnight. It's death by a thousand cuts; attrition.
      - iforgot22 2y ago
        It'd be ironic if someone said "we're better than China because we never censor anything."
        palata 2y ago
        I said, and I quote: > I find it very interesting that we tend to criticize China for their protectionism The irony I see is that we criticize their protectionism, but we also do some kind of protectionism. More largely, we criticize the fact that they ban US companies, and then we do the same. How in the world is that not ironic? It would be perfectly fine to admit it and acknowledge that actually, sometimes protectionism makes sense. But if you look at the answers in this thread, it seems like nobody wants to do that. "We are never wrong, it is not ironic, it is obviously national security". So let's talk about national security. TikTok is a userspace social media app, just like Instagram or Snapchat. If collecting that kind of data is an obvious national security risk, then every single country in the world should ban them. What would the US say if all the western countries banned their social media? Would you say "we understand, it's a national security issue"? My guess is that you would say "but for us it's different: we are the good guys". What about Huawei? Fair enough, infrastructures like antennas are very sensitive, don't let a Chinese company own them on your soil. But the smartphones? Really? Any government can buy stuff like NSO's Pegasus and get access to any mobile phone (iPhones included). Let's not pretend that someone buying a Huawei phone makes that worse, shall we? And it's still obviously fine to ask sensitive personalities (like politicians) to use a non-Chinese smartphone, but that's very different from banning the brand entirely. DJI then? The drones don't have an Internet connection: you have to connect them to your WiFi (be it at home or a mobile hotspot from your phone). That means that if you fly above government facilities, the drone is not streaming the video to China. That also means that if it wanted to, it would have to go through your mobile hotspot, through your ISP. Doesn't seem that hard to ask government drone operators to connect through a firewall, does it? Every big company in the world asks all of their employees to do that. And when did it start being seen as a security issue? Precisely when western companies started lobbying against them because they could not compete. Nobody complained about DJI for years, especially not when the view in western startups was "we are better, we will make a better drone". It took us to realise that DJI was actually a lot better than us to start looking for other ways. Look at who's been lobbying a lot for the ban: western drone companies that have no reason to know about security, but that are struggling because - let's be honest - DJI drones are a lot cheaper and a lot better than anything else. And now we have US billionaires and owners of the biggest tech companies in the world publicly interfering with politics in allied countries. How the hell is that not ironic?
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  > albeit not outright banned it all together No they absolutely do just ban them. It's not just that Google or FB can't operate Chinese-specific sites as a business within China, from within China you can't even get to the foreign/international versions of those sites, because they're blocked by China's firewall. Wikipedia has a whole list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
swed420 2y ago
Yup. China has been kicking Silicon Valley's butt for some time now, and I don't see any signs of that changing any time soon. This drives the point home: AI Superpowers: China, Silicon Valley, and the New World Order by Kai-Fu Lee https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38242135-ai-superpowers https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38242135-ai-superpowers
- tmaly 2y ago
  It was with the 2020 version of the algorithm till they changed things see https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/ https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/
  - swed420 2y ago
    I'm not referring exclusively to TikTok but tech in general. China makes SV look entitled and lazy.
infecto 2y ago
I cannot argue on the TikTok as strongly but I can see strong arguments on why Huawei and DJI are national security risks. Some of this is more educated guesses so not defensible with numbers. We know most major companies in the Chinese market have extremely close ties to the CCP. No doubt historically the US has gotten companies to put in backdoors or other mechanisms but I believe the CCP takes it to a next level. We know for a fact that the CCP and chinese entities play extremely hardball when it comes to corporate espionage. Some of the stories we have seen almost read like a spy novel. Certainly Huawei and DJI make some incredible products but when you have drones being used to survey the electric grid or other major pieces of infrastructure, I do believe it warrants major concern for national security. I think you are proposing a much more extreme conspiracy compared to the easier explanation, China is a fairly crafty bad actor in a lot of cases. 99% of the imported products from China are not getting blocked, just the ones that have very significant national security risks.
- suraci 2y ago
  > 99% of the imported products from China are not getting blocked because it's impossible. the US offloaded low-added-value manufacturing to China, exchanging paper dollars for cheap industrial goods. When China tries to upgrade to high-added-value industries, like chips, guess what? National security risks! just enjoy cheap goods and nature resources from 3rd world...
  - infecto 2y ago
    I am not sure I follow your point. There have been both National Security risks as well as protectionist economic policy enforced against china that benefits domestic players. In a lot of those protectionist cases, there is either a case of China flooding the market or there are cases where the government makes a choice that its beneficial to keep domestic manufacturers alive. In the above provided examples its quite clear that there are possible national security risks involved with China being involved in US infrastructure and technology. If DJI was from the EU there would not even be a discussion. If you have better example beyond hyperbole I am all ears.
rwarfield 2y ago
This claim is incompatible with the reality that the U.S. runs an enormous bilateral trade deficit with China.
- iforgot22 2y ago
  Also Japanese cars
pessimizer 2y ago
It's important to say that the US had TikTok with Vine, but is so corrupt that it let Facebook buy it to shut it down.
corimaith 2y ago
Mercantalism begets Mercantalism. If their mercantalist policies become successfull then unfortunately we'll need to also assume similar policies to protect ourselves, aka Beggar Thy Neighbour, and everyone loses in an arms race of tariffs and subsidies. That's exactly why free trade proponets oppose those policies, but the CCP didn't want to reform so we'll go the opposite way.
iforgot22 2y ago
Huawei has been caught stealing more than enough trade secrets to justify a ban. I'd be happy if they banned a lot more Chinese firms for that, or just in response to China's own bans. But TikTok seems to be uniquely about censorship.
- palata 2y ago
  > But TikTok seems to be uniquely about censorship. Censorship, or protectionism because TikTok is eating the lunch of the big US social media?
  - iforgot22 2y ago
    Gallagher (the bill sponsor) and several other lawmakers made it sound like censorship, and the timing also matches.

by palata 2y ago

tonyhart7 2y ago

well china does it too with google,fb etc back then, and other nation do it too albeit not outright banned it all together but sometimes they prefer homegrown company/technology

lenerdenator 2y ago
I mean, let's be clear: Facebook and Google are very much banned in Mainland China.
palata 2y ago
Sure. I just noted the irony that the US discourse has sounded a lot like "we are better than China, we are more free" for decades.
- infecto 2y ago
  But we are, there is no irony. China has the great wall and massive corporate espionage games to steal state and corporate secrets. The US and its various federal intelligence agencies have certainly done nefarious things but never quite as documented at the level as China's. They actively monitor all of their Social Media, block most foreign social media. I can easily go to any Chinese social media/website from the US.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  In some ways, this is still true, even surrounding this decision. Do you think there were many people standing outside of government buildings in Beijing protesting the potential ban of Facebook and Google while politicians of different political parties were debating the ban in the country's primary legislative body? Do you think you could launch a campaign for office on repealing said ban in China?
  - antifa 2y ago
    I think they could, and fundamentally won't because they can be accessed via VPN, but ultimately aren't necessary because those companies are not exactly interesting for any purpose but talking to Americans or studying Americans.
    - lenerdenator 2y ago
      That wasn't the case in the late 00s when those hacks happened.
- shlant 2y ago
  > "we are better than China, we are more free" Anyone who disagrees with this is either not being honest or is not aware of what extent China restricts it's citizens.
  - palata 2y ago
    But wouldn't you say that there is some irony there, still? I see multiple comments saying "shut up, we're not China!", but that's not what I meant :-). I just meant that there is some irony here. And that next time we criticize China's protectionism, we may take a step back and think that we do it too, sometimes.
    - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      Exactly. One doesn't become their own enemy overnight. It's death by a thousand cuts; attrition.
    - iforgot22 2y ago
      It'd be ironic if someone said "we're better than China because we never censor anything."
      - palata 2y ago
        I said, and I quote: > I find it very interesting that we tend to criticize China for their protectionism The irony I see is that we criticize their protectionism, but we also do some kind of protectionism. More largely, we criticize the fact that they ban US companies, and then we do the same. How in the world is that not ironic? It would be perfectly fine to admit it and acknowledge that actually, sometimes protectionism makes sense. But if you look at the answers in this thread, it seems like nobody wants to do that. "We are never wrong, it is not ironic, it is obviously national security". So let's talk about national security. TikTok is a userspace social media app, just like Instagram or Snapchat. If collecting that kind of data is an obvious national security risk, then every single country in the world should ban them. What would the US say if all the western countries banned their social media? Would you say "we understand, it's a national security issue"? My guess is that you would say "but for us it's different: we are the good guys". What about Huawei? Fair enough, infrastructures like antennas are very sensitive, don't let a Chinese company own them on your soil. But the smartphones? Really? Any government can buy stuff like NSO's Pegasus and get access to any mobile phone (iPhones included). Let's not pretend that someone buying a Huawei phone makes that worse, shall we? And it's still obviously fine to ask sensitive personalities (like politicians) to use a non-Chinese smartphone, but that's very different from banning the brand entirely. DJI then? The drones don't have an Internet connection: you have to connect them to your WiFi (be it at home or a mobile hotspot from your phone). That means that if you fly above government facilities, the drone is not streaming the video to China. That also means that if it wanted to, it would have to go through your mobile hotspot, through your ISP. Doesn't seem that hard to ask government drone operators to connect through a firewall, does it? Every big company in the world asks all of their employees to do that. And when did it start being seen as a security issue? Precisely when western companies started lobbying against them because they could not compete. Nobody complained about DJI for years, especially not when the view in western startups was "we are better, we will make a better drone". It took us to realise that DJI was actually a lot better than us to start looking for other ways. Look at who's been lobbying a lot for the ban: western drone companies that have no reason to know about security, but that are struggling because - let's be honest - DJI drones are a lot cheaper and a lot better than anything else. And now we have US billionaires and owners of the biggest tech companies in the world publicly interfering with politics in allied countries. How the hell is that not ironic?
TulliusCicero 2y ago
> albeit not outright banned it all together No they absolutely do just ban them. It's not just that Google or FB can't operate Chinese-specific sites as a business within China, from within China you can't even get to the foreign/international versions of those sites, because they're blocked by China's firewall. Wikipedia has a whole list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...

swed420 2y ago

Yup. China has been kicking Silicon Valley's butt for some time now, and I don't see any signs of that changing any time soon. This drives the point home: AI Superpowers: China, Silicon Valley, and the New World Order by Kai-Fu Lee https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38242135-ai-superpowers https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38242135-ai-superpowers

tmaly 2y ago
It was with the 2020 version of the algorithm till they changed things see https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/ https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-platforms-cory-doctorow/
- swed420 2y ago
  I'm not referring exclusively to TikTok but tech in general. China makes SV look entitled and lazy.

infecto 2y ago

I cannot argue on the TikTok as strongly but I can see strong arguments on why Huawei and DJI are national security risks. Some of this is more educated guesses so not defensible with numbers. We know most major companies in the Chinese market have extremely close ties to the CCP. No doubt historically the US has gotten companies to put in backdoors or other mechanisms but I believe the CCP takes it to a next level. We know for a fact that the CCP and chinese entities play extremely hardball when it comes to corporate espionage. Some of the stories we have seen almost read like a spy novel. Certainly Huawei and DJI make some incredible products but when you have drones being used to survey the electric grid or other major pieces of infrastructure, I do believe it warrants major concern for national security. I think you are proposing a much more extreme conspiracy compared to the easier explanation, China is a fairly crafty bad actor in a lot of cases. 99% of the imported products from China are not getting blocked, just the ones that have very significant national security risks.

suraci 2y ago
> 99% of the imported products from China are not getting blocked because it's impossible. the US offloaded low-added-value manufacturing to China, exchanging paper dollars for cheap industrial goods. When China tries to upgrade to high-added-value industries, like chips, guess what? National security risks! just enjoy cheap goods and nature resources from 3rd world...
- infecto 2y ago
  I am not sure I follow your point. There have been both National Security risks as well as protectionist economic policy enforced against china that benefits domestic players. In a lot of those protectionist cases, there is either a case of China flooding the market or there are cases where the government makes a choice that its beneficial to keep domestic manufacturers alive. In the above provided examples its quite clear that there are possible national security risks involved with China being involved in US infrastructure and technology. If DJI was from the EU there would not even be a discussion. If you have better example beyond hyperbole I am all ears.

rwarfield 2y ago

This claim is incompatible with the reality that the U.S. runs an enormous bilateral trade deficit with China.

iforgot22 2y ago
Also Japanese cars

pessimizer 2y ago

It's important to say that the US had TikTok with Vine, but is so corrupt that it let Facebook buy it to shut it down.

corimaith 2y ago

Mercantalism begets Mercantalism. If their mercantalist policies become successfull then unfortunately we'll need to also assume similar policies to protect ourselves, aka Beggar Thy Neighbour, and everyone loses in an arms race of tariffs and subsidies. That's exactly why free trade proponets oppose those policies, but the CCP didn't want to reform so we'll go the opposite way.

iforgot22 2y ago

Huawei has been caught stealing more than enough trade secrets to justify a ban. I'd be happy if they banned a lot more Chinese firms for that, or just in response to China's own bans. But TikTok seems to be uniquely about censorship.

palata 2y ago
> But TikTok seems to be uniquely about censorship. Censorship, or protectionism because TikTok is eating the lunch of the big US social media?
- iforgot22 2y ago
  Gallagher (the bill sponsor) and several other lawmakers made it sound like censorship, and the timing also matches.