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Absent any of these conversations is, in my experience, any notion of what exactly China aims to achieve with TikTok that is so sinister? I'm not even arguing,

Absent any of these conversations is, in my experience, any notion of what exactly China aims to achieve with TikTok that is so sinister? I'm not even arguing, I wouldn't doubt China has plans or another that involve America, specifically that wouldn't be too great for America, I'm just struggling to connect TikTok to any of them, and any discussion seems to take it as granted that the shifty Chinese government is up to something with it.

lenerdenator 2y ago
Oh, you could probably make some effective arguments that they're using it to influence American thought in a way that's designed to diminish the US as a world power through internal strife. Israel/Hamas would probably be an example.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  Its clear to anyone that's looking that what's happening in Gaza is a genocide
  - Philpax 2y ago
    For example, here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
    - grumple 2y ago
      Wikipedia is the subject of a very large pro-Palestinian propaganda campaign: https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit... And they have banned several of those involved, though obviously each of the thousands who participated should be banned: https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/article-833180 https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/article-833180
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        What about the groups linked in the wikipedia article: Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the UN Special Committee to investigate Israeli practices and the United Nations Special Rapporteur ? Those seem less biased sources than The Jerusalem Post
        grumple 2y ago
        The source here isn't the JP, it's wikipedia. Wikipedia investigated and banned the editors. JP is just the reporter. You can find other news sites with the same news, or Wikipedia itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_and_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_and_the_Israeli%E2%8... Those human rights groups, unfortunately, have a long history of bias and foreign influence. The closer they are to the UN, the more political they are. Literally half of the UN's resolutions pertain to Israel - while 99.999% of war deaths, famine, modern slavery, etc, happen without Israel being involved. The UN was led by a literal Nazi in the 70s - Kurt Waldheim - and the last few UN Secretary Generals have said that there is a serious bias against Israel there (obvious from the obsession).
      - dttze 2y ago
        Israel has whole government and military orgs dedicated to hasbara and advancing Israeli and Zionist interests. The editors were banned for organizing people around a vote. You going to pretend Israel doesn’t coordinate about the same things?
        grumple 2y ago
        Literally every government has people who go on social media or provide press reports. Only when Israel is involved do you start talking about it like it’s a conspiracy. Please reflect on that for a while. Meanwhile Iran and Russia have literally been caught manipulating Reddit and TikTok. And you’re literally replying to evidence of the pro-Palestinian crowd doing the same in violation of Wikipedia’s terms of use.
  - grumple 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - ignoramous 2y ago
      > No, it really isn't. I wonder what you know about Genocide better than experts in Holocaust studies and other genocides themselves. William Schabas, author of the 741-page textbook, "Genocide in International Law" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. John Quigley, author of the 300-page book, "The Genocide Convention: An International Law Analysis" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. @martinshawx, author of the books "What is Genocide?" and "War and Genocide" - says it's a genocide. @dirkmoses, author of the 600-page book, "The Problems of Genocide" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. Raz Segal, author of "Genocide in the Carpathians" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. Amos Goldberg, author of books on Holocaust, says it's a genocide in Gaza @bartov_omer, author of several books on Holocaust and genocide, says it's a genocide in Gaza. But why to listen to the experts in law and genocide studies? Why to bother to read the extensive human rights reports? Listen to @piersmorgan instead; he has a gut feeling. https://x.com/NimerSultany/status/1870761846497583323 https://x.com/NimerSultany/status/1870761846497583323 > This is war, this is how it goes. Yeah, war is how "I was just following orders" German troops justified killing 12m+ in concentration camps. Goebbels said, "The Jews are responsible for the war. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all." Don't be like Goebbels. > the 2 billion Muslims that hate Jews Yeah, well: I know a handful Muslims who married Jews. > and all you did was bitch on the internet, I'd be ashamed to know you Same.
      - grumple 2y ago
        Unfortunately, popular opinion - at least of the far left - has always been united against Israel. In fact, many of those authors called it a genocide before this war. You can find plenty of such accusations on Twitter from prior to 10/10, when Israel started responding to the attack. You have many groups blaming Israel for all sorts of absurd things - like the fires in California. I wish I was joking. If not for Israel and the Jews, we'd have world peace - at least that's what you'd think if you listened to these groups. It is an extension of populist antisemitism. I encourage you to think about this on your own: why is Israel condemned for 45k deaths in a war they didn't start, where half of the killed are militants, where Israel is literally providing aid to their enemy, while the Houthis, responsible for 300k dead in the past decade, including many children via starvation, who have brought back slavery in Yemen, are lauded for attacking western shipping and have fanboys of one of their murderous pirates? Where is the criticism for Muslims planning terror attacks against the west, and against individual Jews globally? Why do leftists love the idea of jihad and intifada, but not a nation defending itself? Meanwhile, most "genocide" decriers seem to have ignored the tens of thousands of rockets, missiles, and drones launched at Israeli civilians from Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and Yemen. They ignore the videos of Gazans chearing in the streets and spitting on corpses. The open calls for exterminating the Jews from the Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas, PIJ, Iran, and more. There is one side calling for the extermination of the other and taking actions to make it so - the Muslims trying to destroy Israel and calling for and taking actions to kill Jews globally.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  I mean, I'm not on TikTok at all and Israel is committing a genocide. China didn't tell me that, the Israeli's killing Palestinians en masse told me that. Because that's what the word "genocide" means. It seems to be if the US Government wants not to be associated with a genocide-committing country they should just... do that. TikTok might have the largest share of the pro-Palestine mood as it were, but like... it's on all the platforms. Because again... they're committing a genocide, and filming it.
  - LargeWu 2y ago
    I would argue that even though you're not on tiktok, you are being influenced by the narrative that China is pushing. There are numerous genocides happening in the world today. Sudan. China (try talking about THAT one on TikTok...). Why aren't those being treated with equal concern? Because China knows that only the Isreal/Gaza one is a wedge in America, so they push that to sow discord.
    - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
      > Why aren't those being treated with equal concern? I mean I can't speak to other people's experience, but as an American, I'm uniquely pissed off with the Israeli one because my tax dollars are paying for it, and because the White House could stop it at a time of their choosing, as they've done before.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      Which one is the US funding, and using UN vetos to continue? We're an active participant in, its not a surprise its the one we (USA ppl) care about.
  - grumple 2y ago
    What makes this a genocide and not every other war where far more people, including more civilians, died? And at higher ratios of the dead? You can find hundreds of videos of Israel targeting militants, Hamas using schools and hospitals as bases, and more. Nearly a million died in the Iraq war. In a single battle, Mosul, almost as many were killed as in Gaza, including similar ratios of militants and civilians. In Ukraine, far more have been killed, both combatants and civilians - and Russia clearly targets civilians there, and they started the war (while Hamas started the Gaza war). In Syria, half a million died, mostly civilians. Ditto the Lebanese civil war. Ditto the Yemen-Houthi war.
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
Social disruption. That's plainly clear given that Douyin is prevented from having the destructive content that proliferates on TikTok. Keep your competition mired in anti-inellectualism for a generation and it accelerates the rot.
BillyTheMage 2y ago
It's taken for granted that the shifty [any] government is up to something because they always are, 100% of the time. Why would you expect the evil overlords to not be up to something with the big evil brainwashing program that has access to almost everyone on earth?
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  This but unironically. Seriously, given all the crazy shit that's been uncovered in the last 20 years — PRISM, Five Eyes, Cambridge Analytica — why would an influence campaign run over one of the world's biggest social networks controlled by the actual, real life authoritarian Big Brother state be the one scenario that crosses the line from plausible to fantasy for you?
derbOac 2y ago
So it's several things. Bear with me because finding news reports that I remember is difficult now because search results are flooded with stuff about the ban so I can't find what I'm looking for. One concern is a general one that the Chinese government is directing the recommendation algorithms to act as propaganda. So subtly shifting user's opinions in favor of things that suit it and away from things that don't. https://archive.is/tCVmR https://archive.is/tCVmR Another is that it is using TikTok to surveil journalists, emigres, and other persons of interest who are using TikTok. My understanding is there are credible reports of journalists being targeted by the Chinese government, where they used TikTok to find their personal details, location, etc. There's also been increasing reports of the Chinese government operating detention centers in the US and other countries, where they bring kidnapped Chinese nationals. Basically arresting nationals on foreign soil. In some of these cases at least TikTok has been implicated as the method of locating them etc. https://theweek.com/speedreads/764194/intelligence-officials-fear-chinas-global-kidnapping-program-reached-america https://theweek.com/speedreads/764194/intelligence-officials... Discussion of this has all been out there over the years, but the way it's been covered has admittedly been weird. Maybe this is yet another sign of a fractured media landscape, but I think some of it has to do with the US not doing a great job of publicizing some things, possibly because it involves intelligence services. I'm generally very in favor of unfettered freedom of speech, but have mixed feelings about this case. I guess I still side on that, and am skeptical about a ban, but this is getting into different territory and also don't feel strongly about it. I think the effects of foreign (and domestic) propaganda in social networks are very real, and although I generally think censorship is a very bad idea, I'm not sure I can blame a country for wanting an app banned if there's solid information that another country is using it in this way; it seems to be in this gray area of espionage versus free speech which is kind of an unusual territory to be in. Also, I'm fully aware that the US probably does similar things, but two wrongs don't really make a right to me, and if China produced solid evidence of the US doing something similar I wouldn't blame them for banning something either on similar grounds. To me this all just maybe speaks to the need for a shift to open decentralized social network platforms. I realize that's easier said than done, but there's so many examples in the last few years of problems with control of centralized platforms (by private, government, or private-government combinations) leading to huge problems, either in reality or in appearance (which can sometimes be almost as equally concerning).

lenerdenator 2y ago

Oh, you could probably make some effective arguments that they're using it to influence American thought in a way that's designed to diminish the US as a world power through internal strife. Israel/Hamas would probably be an example.

spencerflem 2y ago
Its clear to anyone that's looking that what's happening in Gaza is a genocide
- Philpax 2y ago
  For example, here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide
  - grumple 2y ago
    Wikipedia is the subject of a very large pro-Palestinian propaganda campaign: https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-editors-hijacked-the-israel-palestine-narrative https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit... And they have banned several of those involved, though obviously each of the thousands who participated should be banned: https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/article-833180 https://www.jpost.com/business-and-innovation/article-833180
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      What about the groups linked in the wikipedia article: Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the UN Special Committee to investigate Israeli practices and the United Nations Special Rapporteur ? Those seem less biased sources than The Jerusalem Post
      - grumple 2y ago
        The source here isn't the JP, it's wikipedia. Wikipedia investigated and banned the editors. JP is just the reporter. You can find other news sites with the same news, or Wikipedia itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_and_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_and_the_Israeli%E2%8... Those human rights groups, unfortunately, have a long history of bias and foreign influence. The closer they are to the UN, the more political they are. Literally half of the UN's resolutions pertain to Israel - while 99.999% of war deaths, famine, modern slavery, etc, happen without Israel being involved. The UN was led by a literal Nazi in the 70s - Kurt Waldheim - and the last few UN Secretary Generals have said that there is a serious bias against Israel there (obvious from the obsession).
    - dttze 2y ago
      Israel has whole government and military orgs dedicated to hasbara and advancing Israeli and Zionist interests. The editors were banned for organizing people around a vote. You going to pretend Israel doesn’t coordinate about the same things?
      - grumple 2y ago
        Literally every government has people who go on social media or provide press reports. Only when Israel is involved do you start talking about it like it’s a conspiracy. Please reflect on that for a while. Meanwhile Iran and Russia have literally been caught manipulating Reddit and TikTok. And you’re literally replying to evidence of the pro-Palestinian crowd doing the same in violation of Wikipedia’s terms of use.
- grumple 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ignoramous 2y ago
    > No, it really isn't. I wonder what you know about Genocide better than experts in Holocaust studies and other genocides themselves. William Schabas, author of the 741-page textbook, "Genocide in International Law" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. John Quigley, author of the 300-page book, "The Genocide Convention: An International Law Analysis" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. @martinshawx, author of the books "What is Genocide?" and "War and Genocide" - says it's a genocide. @dirkmoses, author of the 600-page book, "The Problems of Genocide" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. Raz Segal, author of "Genocide in the Carpathians" - says it's a genocide in Gaza. Amos Goldberg, author of books on Holocaust, says it's a genocide in Gaza @bartov_omer, author of several books on Holocaust and genocide, says it's a genocide in Gaza. But why to listen to the experts in law and genocide studies? Why to bother to read the extensive human rights reports? Listen to @piersmorgan instead; he has a gut feeling. https://x.com/NimerSultany/status/1870761846497583323 https://x.com/NimerSultany/status/1870761846497583323 > This is war, this is how it goes. Yeah, war is how "I was just following orders" German troops justified killing 12m+ in concentration camps. Goebbels said, "The Jews are responsible for the war. The treatment they receive from us is hardly unjust. They have deserved it all." Don't be like Goebbels. > the 2 billion Muslims that hate Jews Yeah, well: I know a handful Muslims who married Jews. > and all you did was bitch on the internet, I'd be ashamed to know you Same.
    - grumple 2y ago
      Unfortunately, popular opinion - at least of the far left - has always been united against Israel. In fact, many of those authors called it a genocide before this war. You can find plenty of such accusations on Twitter from prior to 10/10, when Israel started responding to the attack. You have many groups blaming Israel for all sorts of absurd things - like the fires in California. I wish I was joking. If not for Israel and the Jews, we'd have world peace - at least that's what you'd think if you listened to these groups. It is an extension of populist antisemitism. I encourage you to think about this on your own: why is Israel condemned for 45k deaths in a war they didn't start, where half of the killed are militants, where Israel is literally providing aid to their enemy, while the Houthis, responsible for 300k dead in the past decade, including many children via starvation, who have brought back slavery in Yemen, are lauded for attacking western shipping and have fanboys of one of their murderous pirates? Where is the criticism for Muslims planning terror attacks against the west, and against individual Jews globally? Why do leftists love the idea of jihad and intifada, but not a nation defending itself? Meanwhile, most "genocide" decriers seem to have ignored the tens of thousands of rockets, missiles, and drones launched at Israeli civilians from Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and Yemen. They ignore the videos of Gazans chearing in the streets and spitting on corpses. The open calls for exterminating the Jews from the Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas, PIJ, Iran, and more. There is one side calling for the extermination of the other and taking actions to make it so - the Muslims trying to destroy Israel and calling for and taking actions to kill Jews globally.
ToucanLoucan 2y ago
I mean, I'm not on TikTok at all and Israel is committing a genocide. China didn't tell me that, the Israeli's killing Palestinians en masse told me that. Because that's what the word "genocide" means. It seems to be if the US Government wants not to be associated with a genocide-committing country they should just... do that. TikTok might have the largest share of the pro-Palestine mood as it were, but like... it's on all the platforms. Because again... they're committing a genocide, and filming it.
- LargeWu 2y ago
  I would argue that even though you're not on tiktok, you are being influenced by the narrative that China is pushing. There are numerous genocides happening in the world today. Sudan. China (try talking about THAT one on TikTok...). Why aren't those being treated with equal concern? Because China knows that only the Isreal/Gaza one is a wedge in America, so they push that to sow discord.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    > Why aren't those being treated with equal concern? I mean I can't speak to other people's experience, but as an American, I'm uniquely pissed off with the Israeli one because my tax dollars are paying for it, and because the White House could stop it at a time of their choosing, as they've done before.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    Which one is the US funding, and using UN vetos to continue? We're an active participant in, its not a surprise its the one we (USA ppl) care about.
- grumple 2y ago
  What makes this a genocide and not every other war where far more people, including more civilians, died? And at higher ratios of the dead? You can find hundreds of videos of Israel targeting militants, Hamas using schools and hospitals as bases, and more. Nearly a million died in the Iraq war. In a single battle, Mosul, almost as many were killed as in Gaza, including similar ratios of militants and civilians. In Ukraine, far more have been killed, both combatants and civilians - and Russia clearly targets civilians there, and they started the war (while Hamas started the Gaza war). In Syria, half a million died, mostly civilians. Ditto the Lebanese civil war. Ditto the Yemen-Houthi war.

kevin_thibedeau 2y ago

Social disruption. That's plainly clear given that Douyin is prevented from having the destructive content that proliferates on TikTok. Keep your competition mired in anti-inellectualism for a generation and it accelerates the rot.

BillyTheMage 2y ago

It's taken for granted that the shifty [any] government is up to something because they always are, 100% of the time. Why would you expect the evil overlords to not be up to something with the big evil brainwashing program that has access to almost everyone on earth?

nozzlegear 2y ago
This but unironically. Seriously, given all the crazy shit that's been uncovered in the last 20 years — PRISM, Five Eyes, Cambridge Analytica — why would an influence campaign run over one of the world's biggest social networks controlled by the actual, real life authoritarian Big Brother state be the one scenario that crosses the line from plausible to fantasy for you?

derbOac 2y ago

So it's several things. Bear with me because finding news reports that I remember is difficult now because search results are flooded with stuff about the ban so I can't find what I'm looking for. One concern is a general one that the Chinese government is directing the recommendation algorithms to act as propaganda. So subtly shifting user's opinions in favor of things that suit it and away from things that don't. https://archive.is/tCVmR https://archive.is/tCVmR Another is that it is using TikTok to surveil journalists, emigres, and other persons of interest who are using TikTok. My understanding is there are credible reports of journalists being targeted by the Chinese government, where they used TikTok to find their personal details, location, etc. There's also been increasing reports of the Chinese government operating detention centers in the US and other countries, where they bring kidnapped Chinese nationals. Basically arresting nationals on foreign soil. In some of these cases at least TikTok has been implicated as the method of locating them etc. https://theweek.com/speedreads/764194/intelligence-officials-fear-chinas-global-kidnapping-program-reached-america https://theweek.com/speedreads/764194/intelligence-officials... Discussion of this has all been out there over the years, but the way it's been covered has admittedly been weird. Maybe this is yet another sign of a fractured media landscape, but I think some of it has to do with the US not doing a great job of publicizing some things, possibly because it involves intelligence services. I'm generally very in favor of unfettered freedom of speech, but have mixed feelings about this case. I guess I still side on that, and am skeptical about a ban, but this is getting into different territory and also don't feel strongly about it. I think the effects of foreign (and domestic) propaganda in social networks are very real, and although I generally think censorship is a very bad idea, I'm not sure I can blame a country for wanting an app banned if there's solid information that another country is using it in this way; it seems to be in this gray area of espionage versus free speech which is kind of an unusual territory to be in. Also, I'm fully aware that the US probably does similar things, but two wrongs don't really make a right to me, and if China produced solid evidence of the US doing something similar I wouldn't blame them for banning something either on similar grounds. To me this all just maybe speaks to the need for a shift to open decentralized social network platforms. I realize that's easier said than done, but there's so many examples in the last few years of problems with control of centralized platforms (by private, government, or private-government combinations) leading to huge problems, either in reality or in appearance (which can sometimes be almost as equally concerning).