6 ms·

The movie, Rebel Ridge, does a decent job showing just how bad this can be in a small town. It's not exactly realistic for how the former Marine depicted chose

The movie, Rebel Ridge, does a decent job showing just how bad this can be in a small town. It's not exactly realistic for how the former Marine depicted chose to try to resolve the situation... It does give room to consider just how corrupt it can all be. Consider if you live in a town with only one bank. Clearly the bank and the police have a relationship and in a small town, odds are they all know each other quite well. Say someone withdraws money from the bank. Then the teller sort of rats you out to law enforcement or someone adjacent to law enforcement. They manufacture an excuse to pull you over just as was done in this Nevada story. The movie Rebel Ridge goes into the difficulty in even getting your money back in the first place. At one point they explain a large part of the police departments funding comes from this. Then again, it isn't just small police departments getting kick backs, it's everyone involved to run up the cost for someone who had their money stolen. At some point, civil forfeiture laws will lay the foundation for having any amount of cash being a sort of assumption of criminality. Consider too that smaller banks and even large banks have reserve requirements but not enough to cover all of the deposits. When most money exists in digital form in a database somewhere, over time, the concept of real paper money gets that assumption of wrong doing. Almost like it is the financial equivalent of "you must have something to hide, or else you would be using your credit card".

the-dude 2y ago
> At some point, civil forfeiture laws will lay the foundation for having any amount of cash being a sort of assumption of criminality. Although we don't have civil forfeiture, this is already true in The Netherlands.
- coldtea 2y ago
  Non-sovereign subjects can't be allowed to do whatever they want with their own money...
- MEMORYC_RRUPTED 2y ago
  While I don't disagree with the general statement, I do want to add the nuance that this isn't true for small amounts of cash money. Recently, the government even recommended people to keep more cash on hand in case of emergency / large scale disruptions to the financial system. Even with large amounts of money, it's not like they're knocking on doors, looking under yer bed.
  - the-dude 2y ago
    What is small and what is large is a matter of opinion. If they are out to get you and can't find anything incriminating, cash will do. The press will happily report on this too : 'There was a police raid so and so, nothing was found but they found a (large) amount of cash'. Furthermore, our government is planning legislation to make cash transactions > € 3000 illegal.
    - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
      > What is small and what is large is a matter of opinion. There's certainly there's some vagueness in the middle, for me a few hundred isn't large, but a grand is, and I don't know that everyone would agree, but I think most everyone would agree that $5 is small and $10,000 is large.
      - reaperman 2y ago
        $10,000 doesn't seem particularly large. Just a few years ago, I bought an old truck for $12,000 in one hundred dollar bills. If you're worried about large drug transactions, a kilogram of cocaine would cost around $20,000-40,000 in the USA, and significantly more in Europe (actual wholesale price for bulk purchase, not inflated police figures that price it at $150/gram). Personally I think one month of apartment rent should not be considered a suspiciously large amount of cash, and it should be fine to buy a car from a friend using actual cash. I really don't see the downside of leaving those things legal without a threat of civil asset forfeiture.
        SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
        $12,000 is an out of the ordinary large amount of money - that's why you can note it as a special instance. It's certainly not something you keep on yourself every day, right? I'm not arguing that people should be limited in what money they carry, I'm saying there is a normal range of cash, it's not as nebulous as argued.
        2y ago
- soco 2y ago
  Are you sure the "any amount" generalization is true? I know in Switzerland of money confiscated at border control for simple suspicion, but we are talking (tens of) thousands. Although there's a certain obligation of declaration those people always "forget", that situation stays shitty, but in any case it's a very very far cry from "any amount".
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - the-dude 2y ago
    If it were really 'any' in the philosophical sense, cash would be outlawed. So no, it is not 'any', it is anywhere between more than a couple of hundred to a couple of thousands, depending on what the police or prosecutor feels is reasonable. What is wrong with a (couple of) thousand euros? > I know in Switzerland of money confiscated at border control You are describing smuggling, I was talking about normal domestic use.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      > You are describing smuggling There's a thin line between smuggling and wanting personal money to be somewhere else. I get why most states want to track cash coming across their border, but it's really none of their business if they can't prove theres a crime. The absence of a crime does not constitute a crime.
      - soco 2y ago
        And now the funny part: even after they failed to prove there's a crime, the Swiss police still often refuses to release the money.
    - nullc 2y ago
      > If it were really 'any' in the philosophical sense, cash would be outlawed. The state doesn't have unlimited power, so no. What you expect to see where cash is being banned outright is a slow erosion of less common uses, larger amounts, and an addition of inconveniences and risks in order to drive people off it so that an eventual ban is less unpopular or is even popular. ("screw those bank distrusting weirdos!") To ban outright risks backlash and failure.
nicholasjarnold 2y ago
> When most money exists in digital form in a database somewhere, over time, the concept of real paper money gets that assumption of wrong doing. It's already happening, and it probably just depends on the teller you get. I have no idea if it's policy or not, but I've been questioned pretty intrusively for cash transactions even under the reporting limit of 10k (see: BSA, CTR).
- sigmoid10 2y ago
  The EU literally got rid of the 500 Euro bank note because it was primarily used by criminals for evading the law.
  - Y_Y 2y ago
    They literally did not. 500s are still currency, they just stopped printing them.
    - whycome 2y ago
      I think that’s what was implied. Canada “got rid of” the $1000 bill but it’s still legal tender. Canada also got rid of the penny, but it remains legal tender. Banks will take them if vendors don’t.
    - sigmoid10 2y ago
      German Marks can also still be swapped for legal tender. That doesn't mean it is possible to use them like the Euro.
      - Y_Y 2y ago
        So not like the 500 euro note either, which is legal tender already.
      - Kon-Peki 2y ago
        By making the Mark convertible to Euro indefinitely, Germany decided that it would be the only Euro-zone country that wasn’t going to participate in the confiscation of what turned out to be billions from their own citizens. It’s called seigniorage and has been a thing since Roman times or even before.
matheusmoreira 2y ago
> At some point, civil forfeiture laws will lay the foundation for having any amount of cash being a sort of assumption of criminality. Already true in Brazil where I live. It's just the financial arm of global warrantless mass surveillance. I highly recommend not allowing them to do this to you. Brazilian central bank developed a digital centralized money transfer system called pix. You already know where this is going, right? At first it was great: instant, zero fees, no taxes. Right now the entire nation is angry about the fact our IRS equivalent will start using the pix transaction data to cross reference and audit citizens. If you move more than ~800 USD your financial data gets sent to the government automatically. I like to believe that Brazil is some kind of test bed for dystopian nonsense like this.
- Vilian 2y ago
  They already did it with credit card, I'm actually surprised that they weren't already doing that, not sure if I understand the issue
jncfhnb 2y ago
The reserve requirement comment feels out of place. Banks don’t keep their reserve requirements in physical cash.
RickS 2y ago
One of the more insidious versions of this is the static thresholds for things like "a suspiciously large amount of cash", which are not inflation adjusted, causing them to effectively shrink over time. A $10K cash travel limit established by the Bank Secrecy Act in 1970 would be over $80K in 2025 dollars. The law is structured so that the net is constantly tightening by default.

the-dude 2y ago

> At some point, civil forfeiture laws will lay the foundation for having any amount of cash being a sort of assumption of criminality. Although we don't have civil forfeiture, this is already true in The Netherlands.

coldtea 2y ago
Non-sovereign subjects can't be allowed to do whatever they want with their own money...
MEMORYC_RRUPTED 2y ago
While I don't disagree with the general statement, I do want to add the nuance that this isn't true for small amounts of cash money. Recently, the government even recommended people to keep more cash on hand in case of emergency / large scale disruptions to the financial system. Even with large amounts of money, it's not like they're knocking on doors, looking under yer bed.
- the-dude 2y ago
  What is small and what is large is a matter of opinion. If they are out to get you and can't find anything incriminating, cash will do. The press will happily report on this too : 'There was a police raid so and so, nothing was found but they found a (large) amount of cash'. Furthermore, our government is planning legislation to make cash transactions > € 3000 illegal.
  - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
    > What is small and what is large is a matter of opinion. There's certainly there's some vagueness in the middle, for me a few hundred isn't large, but a grand is, and I don't know that everyone would agree, but I think most everyone would agree that $5 is small and $10,000 is large.
    - reaperman 2y ago
      $10,000 doesn't seem particularly large. Just a few years ago, I bought an old truck for $12,000 in one hundred dollar bills. If you're worried about large drug transactions, a kilogram of cocaine would cost around $20,000-40,000 in the USA, and significantly more in Europe (actual wholesale price for bulk purchase, not inflated police figures that price it at $150/gram). Personally I think one month of apartment rent should not be considered a suspiciously large amount of cash, and it should be fine to buy a car from a friend using actual cash. I really don't see the downside of leaving those things legal without a threat of civil asset forfeiture.
      - SketchySeaBeast 2y ago
        $12,000 is an out of the ordinary large amount of money - that's why you can note it as a special instance. It's certainly not something you keep on yourself every day, right? I'm not arguing that people should be limited in what money they carry, I'm saying there is a normal range of cash, it's not as nebulous as argued.
        2y ago
soco 2y ago
Are you sure the "any amount" generalization is true? I know in Switzerland of money confiscated at border control for simple suspicion, but we are talking (tens of) thousands. Although there's a certain obligation of declaration those people always "forget", that situation stays shitty, but in any case it's a very very far cry from "any amount".
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- the-dude 2y ago
  If it were really 'any' in the philosophical sense, cash would be outlawed. So no, it is not 'any', it is anywhere between more than a couple of hundred to a couple of thousands, depending on what the police or prosecutor feels is reasonable. What is wrong with a (couple of) thousand euros? > I know in Switzerland of money confiscated at border control You are describing smuggling, I was talking about normal domestic use.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    > You are describing smuggling There's a thin line between smuggling and wanting personal money to be somewhere else. I get why most states want to track cash coming across their border, but it's really none of their business if they can't prove theres a crime. The absence of a crime does not constitute a crime.
    - soco 2y ago
      And now the funny part: even after they failed to prove there's a crime, the Swiss police still often refuses to release the money.
  - nullc 2y ago
    > If it were really 'any' in the philosophical sense, cash would be outlawed. The state doesn't have unlimited power, so no. What you expect to see where cash is being banned outright is a slow erosion of less common uses, larger amounts, and an addition of inconveniences and risks in order to drive people off it so that an eventual ban is less unpopular or is even popular. ("screw those bank distrusting weirdos!") To ban outright risks backlash and failure.

nicholasjarnold 2y ago

> When most money exists in digital form in a database somewhere, over time, the concept of real paper money gets that assumption of wrong doing. It's already happening, and it probably just depends on the teller you get. I have no idea if it's policy or not, but I've been questioned pretty intrusively for cash transactions even under the reporting limit of 10k (see: BSA, CTR).

sigmoid10 2y ago
The EU literally got rid of the 500 Euro bank note because it was primarily used by criminals for evading the law.
- Y_Y 2y ago
  They literally did not. 500s are still currency, they just stopped printing them.
  - whycome 2y ago
    I think that’s what was implied. Canada “got rid of” the $1000 bill but it’s still legal tender. Canada also got rid of the penny, but it remains legal tender. Banks will take them if vendors don’t.
  - sigmoid10 2y ago
    German Marks can also still be swapped for legal tender. That doesn't mean it is possible to use them like the Euro.
    - Y_Y 2y ago
      So not like the 500 euro note either, which is legal tender already.
    - Kon-Peki 2y ago
      By making the Mark convertible to Euro indefinitely, Germany decided that it would be the only Euro-zone country that wasn’t going to participate in the confiscation of what turned out to be billions from their own citizens. It’s called seigniorage and has been a thing since Roman times or even before.

matheusmoreira 2y ago

> At some point, civil forfeiture laws will lay the foundation for having any amount of cash being a sort of assumption of criminality. Already true in Brazil where I live. It's just the financial arm of global warrantless mass surveillance. I highly recommend not allowing them to do this to you. Brazilian central bank developed a digital centralized money transfer system called pix. You already know where this is going, right? At first it was great: instant, zero fees, no taxes. Right now the entire nation is angry about the fact our IRS equivalent will start using the pix transaction data to cross reference and audit citizens. If you move more than ~800 USD your financial data gets sent to the government automatically. I like to believe that Brazil is some kind of test bed for dystopian nonsense like this.

Vilian 2y ago
They already did it with credit card, I'm actually surprised that they weren't already doing that, not sure if I understand the issue

jncfhnb 2y ago

The reserve requirement comment feels out of place. Banks don’t keep their reserve requirements in physical cash.

RickS 2y ago

One of the more insidious versions of this is the static thresholds for things like "a suspiciously large amount of cash", which are not inflation adjusted, causing them to effectively shrink over time. A $10K cash travel limit established by the Bank Secrecy Act in 1970 would be over $80K in 2025 dollars. The law is structured so that the net is constantly tightening by default.