7 ms·
Can't wait to see the factory in Germany also starting to pump out chips.
by dotdi 2y ago
Can't wait to see the factory in Germany also starting to pump out chips.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoGerman TSMC fab will produce 16nm there, not 4nm though. Useful for the auto industry but much lower margin and less strategically important than 4nm fab in the US.
- KronisLV 2y agoThat's still nice, especially considering that it’s somewhere between Haswell and Broadwell from 2014. Maybe not the kind of progress or initiative that gets headlines, but neither is it trying to push as far as what Intel has been trying to do for the past few years.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoSure, but coming dead last behind Taiwan, Korea, US, Japan and China in the race to cutting edge semiconductor manufacturing is nothing to brag about. That's like celebrating for coming last. This means you're getting the lowest industry margins, meaning less profits, less money for R&D, less wages and also less geopolitical leverage. This is nothing to celebrate but should be an alarm clock for our elected leader to wake the f up. A lot of semi research is done in the EU, like at IMEC in Belgium, but few of it ends up commercialized by EU companies, so EU taxpayer money gets spent but other nations get to reap the rewards.
- bwb 2y agoSmall steps, hopefully they move up from there.
- lm28469 2y agoI don't think they want cutting edge tech, they want to be able to not have to stop their entire industry during the next pandemic/war/whatever just because they can't get their hands on a $2 chip made on the other side of the world
- looofooo0 2y agoWell big part of the EUV tech used stems from Europe.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoFalse. EUV tech is 100% researched and manufactured in the US. Edit to answer @ looofooo0: EUV tech comes from Sandia Labs research that ASML licensed, and the EUV light sources (there's no such thing as an EUV laser, the Trmpf is a regular laser firing into tin droplets for EUV generation) are made by Cymer in the US which ASML integrates them into their stepper which is a relative commodity item in comparison to the light-source.
- looofooo0 2y ago?? ASML builds the EUV machines in Europe. Zeiss builds the optical compentents in Europe. Trumpf builds ne EUV-Laser in Europe. Moreover, most of the tech stems from the European-funded EUCLIDES (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) project.
- cromwellian 2y agoYou’re forgetting about 2 decades of US DoE funding of EUV research through EUV-LLC which ASML joined late. A lot of the early groundwork and foundational research was done by DoE including using US built synchrotron accelerators to try out various early approaches.
- looofooo0 2y agoYes, I think the route was Soviet Union, Japan, USA, Europe.
- mainecoder 2y agoEurope takes credit for ASML we can't do it without them the lions share of the work it takes to make the machines is due to ASML, it would be nice if they had big tech companies of their own. They decline of Europe is already happening the wealthy aren't as greedy there at least not greedy enough to work as hard as the American thus eventually US interests will control Europe.
- robertlagrant 2y ago> but few of it ends up commercialized by EU companies ASML is massive, no?
- buran77 2y ago> nothing to brag about Maybe some things shouldn't be about bragging but about getting the job done, and cutting edge isn't the only way to do it. If anything, the problem here isn't that it's "just" 16nm but that the EU isn't developing a end-to-end (research to manufacturing) true home grown industry and still relies a lot on external partners like Intel to do it from the outside. But a good first step to develop enough talent locally that can later flow into domestic alternatives.
- dingdingdang 2y agoAgree with this take. Additionally it brings geopolitical stability by not putting the onus on just one-to-two countries (Taiwan, US) to produce the majority of the worlds info-tech infrastructure. A 16nm process is still very very modern in the grander scope of things. Be interesting to see if there's integration with research environments within the EU.. otherwise it could fizzle in terms of it's true potential positive impact.
- jvanderbot 2y agoIt's all well and good shooting for the best, latest semiconductors. It's also well and good securing the source of the rest of the chips used by the rest of the devices in the world. Cars, consumer goods, every industrial machine ever, etc ... A stable domestic supply chain might pay dividends, especially if international order degrades at all.
- selimthegrim 2y agoHave you seen the salaries at IMEC?
- leoc 2y agoStrategic for that same German auto industry, though. I assume that the Covid disruption to the supply of boring but essential microcontrollers for cars was a wake-up call. Speaking of the leading edge, though: while industrial policy, like other kinds of investment, is easier with the benefit of hindsight, there must be some regret at having let Global Foundries drop out of the peloton.
- PittleyDunkin 2y agoWhat Europe wants is not necessarily profitability but rather resilience. You can't leave this kind of decision up to the irrationality of market forces. So—you're correct, germany (or the EU) should subsidize chips if they want to weather the future.
- UltraSane 2y agoHow much does Germany's very expensive electricity affect TSMC's costs?
- varjag 2y agoAt that size of node, semiconductor manufacturing costs are not material constrained.
- UltraSane 2y agoelectricity is not "material" it is energy input.
- nothrabannosir 2y agoI’m assuming he means capex vs opex ? Electricity is opex.
- varjag 2y agoWhen you get a detailed quotation from a manufacturer it's usually split into three: NRE, time (labor and machine) and material. Energy and other recurring consumables go under material. In case of semiconductors with frontier processes (last few generations) NRE is extremely high and machine time rates are expensive. Doubling or tripling energy costs would have negligible effects.
- Reimersholme 2y ago[dead]
- markhahn 2y agochip fabs are big and contain a lot of things like pumps (and even a few very exotic lasers). but they're not power-intensive the way a steel plant is - or even a datacenter.
- Aldipower 2y agoIf you mean the Intel factory, this is delayed by 2 years. If it ever will come.. And the other planed Wolfspeed factory is cancelled completely.
- ulfw 2y agoBoth will never come. For obvious reasons.
- rajamaka 2y agoWhat are the obvious reasons?
- Cumpiler69 2y agoI guess the expensive energy in Germany, lots of red tape and nimbyism, and not enough state subsidies which is what these companies were hoping for when they were fishing for places to open fabs.
- kuschkufan 2y agoWell, your guess is off the mark.
- Cumpiler69 2y agoCare to explain why?
- PittleyDunkin 2y agoThere's also the fact that every single fab opened outside of Taiwan reduces Taiwan's national security.
- swarnie 2y agoIs Taiwan's national security the major concern here? I assumed everyone was just bluffing at that until they can get their own supply. Getting dragging in to an East China unification war because you can't squeeze lighting in to rocks on time is a tragedy.