4 ms·

> forced internment for children Where I live (U.S.), new schools are literally built like prisons... each wing is laid out from a central "observation area" f

> forced internment for children Where I live (U.S.), new schools are literally built like prisons... each wing is laid out from a central "observation area" for the administrators. It's just a panopticon design modeled after penitentiaries. I was with my family in our new local high school. My dad and I were the only two who noticed the layout.

thih9 2y ago
The panopticon design was originally intended for schools too, as well as other institutions: > Bentham conceived the basic plan as being equally applicable to hospitals, schools, sanatoriums, and asylums. He devoted most of his efforts to developing a design for a panopticon prison, so the term now usually refers to that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon Whether it’s friendly and encourages healthy development is another question.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  The criticism section of the Wikipedia article focuses on political aspects, but to me, the very idea of keeping someone feeling like they're always watched sounds like psychological torture.
  - Pet_Ant 2y ago
    In fairness if you’ve ever been bullied and corned out of view of the teachers, having someone seeing you may feel like a relief.
    - DrillShopper 2y ago
      That assumes they'll do anything instead of turn a blind eye. In my school experience they turned a blind eye unless you fought back in which case they would punish you for fighting back.
    - whythre 2y ago
      Many of the bullying stories on here involve either a do-nothing response by authorities or both sides being punished. I do not see how constant monitoring ensures any kind of protection or justice.
  - kristianbrigman 2y ago
    And yet, I bet when you make a trade on craigslist (showing my age :), you meet in a public place where people can see you. Why?
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Key word is always. It's not just about being observed (with or without knowing when and by whom), but also having no control over it. Craiglist-mediated exchange is a choice. School, prison or workplace is not - not in any practical sense.
    - ndriscoll 2y ago
      I don't think I've ever met in a public place for Craigslist trades. I've always gone to the seller's house. I don't think we've ever sold anything, but when we put something up for free online we just leave it outside and tell them to come get it.
20after4 2y ago
In Missouri, high-school buildings use the same blueprints as state prisons. Why bother designing something custom? They serve the same purpose. They literally are prisons. If a teenager fails to show up for school, a police officer will eventually show up to arrest their parents and place the teenager in the custody of a "foster family." Now both parent and teenager are imprisoned. And we are told this is freedom. To make matters much much worse, children in state custody with the foster system are routinely exposed to all kinds of abuse. Many foster families operate like a profitable business where costs are minimized and care is entirely absent.
- lyu07282 2y ago
  > And we are told this is freedom. I think we pretty much universally agree that mandatory schooling is preferable to the alternative, do you really think an illiterate populous is preferable? So yes actually that is freedom. Society guarantees that you will not be illiterate just because your parents were crack addicts, I think that's a good thing.
  - greentxt 2y ago
    I don't think an illiterate populous is the alternative unless you think most people lack intrinsic motivation and also have families that don't value education. Seems extremely unlikely. Maybe you wouldn't have gone to school if you had a choice but most people would, if nothing else for free childcare.
    - lyu07282 2y ago
      > most people would You are missing the point, "most" is not all, I don't think most people/families are like this at all, we don't do this for most people. I think you would be surprised about the number of low-income children in the US who will never see a classroom if we abandoned compulsory education. It is also an effective measure to increase equality and class mobility. 14 million children in the US are food insecure. 43 million people live in poverty, 12.9% [1] You know how many people in the US are illiterate? 21% [2] Do you think that number will increase or decrease if we got rid of compulsory education? [1] https://www.nokidhungry.org/who-we-are/hunger-facts https://www.nokidhungry.org/who-we-are/hunger-facts [2] https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/post/literacy-statistics-2024-2025-where-we-are-now https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/post/literacy-s...
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
There's security checkpoints and police officers in bulletproof vests and carrying guns as well in some cases, because what if a school shooter shows up? Of course, when one does show up a hundred militarized police will show up and... do nothing, because what will the union do if one gets shot?
- bill_joy_fanboy 2y ago
  My favorite was the lady cop in Texas who said she would only "go in" if her kid was in there. Your kids? ... Not her problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--rt8aVV2zk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--rt8aVV2zk

thih9 2y ago

The panopticon design was originally intended for schools too, as well as other institutions: > Bentham conceived the basic plan as being equally applicable to hospitals, schools, sanatoriums, and asylums. He devoted most of his efforts to developing a design for a panopticon prison, so the term now usually refers to that. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon Whether it’s friendly and encourages healthy development is another question.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
The criticism section of the Wikipedia article focuses on political aspects, but to me, the very idea of keeping someone feeling like they're always watched sounds like psychological torture.
- Pet_Ant 2y ago
  In fairness if you’ve ever been bullied and corned out of view of the teachers, having someone seeing you may feel like a relief.
  - DrillShopper 2y ago
    That assumes they'll do anything instead of turn a blind eye. In my school experience they turned a blind eye unless you fought back in which case they would punish you for fighting back.
  - whythre 2y ago
    Many of the bullying stories on here involve either a do-nothing response by authorities or both sides being punished. I do not see how constant monitoring ensures any kind of protection or justice.
- kristianbrigman 2y ago
  And yet, I bet when you make a trade on craigslist (showing my age :), you meet in a public place where people can see you. Why?
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Key word is always. It's not just about being observed (with or without knowing when and by whom), but also having no control over it. Craiglist-mediated exchange is a choice. School, prison or workplace is not - not in any practical sense.
  - ndriscoll 2y ago
    I don't think I've ever met in a public place for Craigslist trades. I've always gone to the seller's house. I don't think we've ever sold anything, but when we put something up for free online we just leave it outside and tell them to come get it.

20after4 2y ago

In Missouri, high-school buildings use the same blueprints as state prisons. Why bother designing something custom? They serve the same purpose. They literally are prisons. If a teenager fails to show up for school, a police officer will eventually show up to arrest their parents and place the teenager in the custody of a "foster family." Now both parent and teenager are imprisoned. And we are told this is freedom. To make matters much much worse, children in state custody with the foster system are routinely exposed to all kinds of abuse. Many foster families operate like a profitable business where costs are minimized and care is entirely absent.

lyu07282 2y ago
> And we are told this is freedom. I think we pretty much universally agree that mandatory schooling is preferable to the alternative, do you really think an illiterate populous is preferable? So yes actually that is freedom. Society guarantees that you will not be illiterate just because your parents were crack addicts, I think that's a good thing.
- greentxt 2y ago
  I don't think an illiterate populous is the alternative unless you think most people lack intrinsic motivation and also have families that don't value education. Seems extremely unlikely. Maybe you wouldn't have gone to school if you had a choice but most people would, if nothing else for free childcare.
  - lyu07282 2y ago
    > most people would You are missing the point, "most" is not all, I don't think most people/families are like this at all, we don't do this for most people. I think you would be surprised about the number of low-income children in the US who will never see a classroom if we abandoned compulsory education. It is also an effective measure to increase equality and class mobility. 14 million children in the US are food insecure. 43 million people live in poverty, 12.9% [1] You know how many people in the US are illiterate? 21% [2] Do you think that number will increase or decrease if we got rid of compulsory education? [1] https://www.nokidhungry.org/who-we-are/hunger-facts https://www.nokidhungry.org/who-we-are/hunger-facts [2] https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/post/literacy-statistics-2024-2025-where-we-are-now https://www.thenationalliteracyinstitute.com/post/literacy-s...

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

There's security checkpoints and police officers in bulletproof vests and carrying guns as well in some cases, because what if a school shooter shows up? Of course, when one does show up a hundred militarized police will show up and... do nothing, because what will the union do if one gets shot?

bill_joy_fanboy 2y ago
My favorite was the lady cop in Texas who said she would only "go in" if her kid was in there. Your kids? ... Not her problem. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--rt8aVV2zk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--rt8aVV2zk