6 ms·

I love how the Americans say they're "making money". That's exactly what you're doing. Money is the product of people who create something of value. Don't think

I love how the Americans say they're "making money". That's exactly what you're doing. Money is the product of people who create something of value. Don't think of it as "the root of all evil" ;-)

justsee 14y ago
This is where we should wheel out Francisco's money speech in Atlas Shrugged: http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speech/ http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speec... (I'm not an Ayn Rand fan and found lots of her ideas in Atlas Shrugged ridiculous, but thought that speech was rather good).
- Prophasi 14y ago
  Apropos citation. Would've been an even better one without the disclaimer. The money speech contains the essence of the overriding philosophy in the novel at large; I'm curious what you found ridiculous in the rest of the book that isn't stated here (at least in its logical precepts).
  - justsee 14y ago
    The money speech helped me get over an irrational, subconscious distaste for money but at the same time I recognized it for the capitalist fairytale that it is. So I suppose it helped me in a way that "The Automatic Millionaire" and other books helped jaysonelliot. Gruseom has apparently never read Rand, but manages a brief, wonderful analysis of Rand's flaws and absurdities above that captures the essence of what I found more absurd as the novel progresses to its conclusion. However I still keep the concept of moochers and looters in my head, and think of them as we lurch from one global financial crisis to another.
    - seagreen 14y ago
      "The money speech helped me get over an irrational, subconscious distaste for money but at the same time I recognized it for the capitalist fairytale that it is." Funny, the best summary of Rand I've read (maybe on Samizdata - I can't find the exact quote though) is that her writing is a really good antidote to certain ideologies, but it shouldn't be mistaken for food. EDIT: s/Samizata/Samizdata
    - demigod 14y ago
      exactly!!! It helped me too, to put money in its place, I had a problem with spending money.
- gruseom 14y ago
  You got me curious. I don't have the fortitude to read through all of that but I dipped in here and there. What leapt out at me is how utterly Russian it is. The speech reads like an English translation of an ideological Russian novel, which I suppose in some sense it is. Rand comes across as a shrill and graphomanic anti-Dostoevsky. (Dostoevsky was a polar opposite kind of conservative to AR, if she can be called conservative, and boy would he have had a field day with this.) Rand's desire to take her idea as far as it can possibly go, in classic can't-make-an-omelette-without-breaking-eggs style, is as Russian as vodka. Think Bazarov the nihilist in "Fathers and Sons". Or better, Chernyshevsky's "What is to be Done?" which is famous for two things: having inspired generations of Russian revolutionaries and being a bit of a literary embarrassment. Here's an example. This is interesting and at least plausible: No other language or nation had ever used these words ["to make money"] before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity [...] Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. But she follows it with a non sequitur so stupid that one wonders whether it is parody: The words ‘to make money’ hold the essence of human morality. This kind of totalism isn't particularly American; there are no checks and balances for miles. Rather, it's a foreign species that has flourished in certain American soils. It's easy to see why the greed-is-good financialization crowd would go in for someone who writes things like "Money is the product of virtue". Much more interesting is the question of its popular appeal. There I think you have to look at what Steinbeck famously pointed out, that America doesn't have poor, it has temporarily embarrassed millionaires. There's an awesome novel to be written by someone with the ability to grasp all this at its root. Rand didn't write such a novel but she would make a great character in it.
  - guscost 14y ago
    Ayn Rand was one hell of a romantic...
  - adavies42 14y ago
    > The speech reads like an English translation of an ideological Russian novel, which I suppose in some sense it is. Rand comes across as a shrill and graphomanic anti-Dostoevsky. (Dostoevsky was a polar opposite kind of conservative to AR, if she can be called conservative, and boy would he have had a field day with this.) Rand was a fan of Dostoevsky (see The Romantic Manifesto http://www.amazon.com/dp/0451149165 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0451149165). (By comparison, she couldn't stand Tolstoy, and considered Anna Karenina one of the (morally) worst books ever written.) Sciabarra's Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical http://www.amazon.com/dp/0271014415 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0271014415 considers her from a perspective that sounds similar to yours. (I haven't read it myself.)
citizens 14y ago
It's not that money is the root of all evil, but rather "the love of money is the root of all evil" 1 Timothy 6:10. Never imagined myself quoting the bible.
- TruthElixirX 14y ago
  Love of money is not the root of all evil.
  - bgilroy26 14y ago
    I don't think the quote is meant to be anti-money. I think a true "love of money" would be recognizes it for what it is: a vehicle. The root of all evil is an obsessive/addictive love of money. Any addiction is classically considered evil, but love of money is the most dangerous because it is the most formless and abstract. Workaholism is pretty abstract, but at least you need to appear to be doing something. In our times as in all others, it is possible to chase money by doing nothing of value at all. Traditionally speaking (i.e. in the historical context of the Bible a la Dante et al) the only way for something to be bad is to take something good and twist it out of it's shape, or pull it from it's right place.
  - kbd 14y ago
    The whole "the root of all evil" comes from bad translation in the King James. Modern translations usually translate it as "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" (NIV) or "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (ESV). Here's a parallel comparison of the NIV, ESV, KJV, and the NKJV[1]. Note that the New King James even updated the phrase to be more accurate, and it now mirrors the other translations. [1] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:10&version=NIV;ESV;KJV;NKJV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:...
    - kbd 14y ago
      Since I can no longer edit: In fact, a better translation is probably "of all these evils", referring to those mentioned in the preceding context. The NASB notes that the literal is "the evils", and that's exactly how Young's Literal Translation translates it[1]. The Aramaic Bible in Plain English, which I've never heard of, has a great translation of this[2]. Here's Clarke's commentary[3] as well: > The love of money is the root of all evil - Perhaps it would be better to translate παντων των κακων, of all these evils; i.e. the evils enumerated above... Anyway, sorry for the diversion from "hacker news" territory but I think it's interesting to know that not only is this widely-quoted verse not as widely applicable as is usually quoted ("money (or love of money) is the root of all evil"), nor is it even a general statement about love of money ("love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"), but it seems to be specifically just about the evils mentioned in the immediate context ("love of money is the root of all these evils"). [1] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:6-10&version=NASB;YLT;NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:... [2] http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/6.htm http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/6.h... [3] http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/ti1006.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/ti1006.htm
lcargill99 14y ago
Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is the root of all evil. This is something like being obsessed with money, or reifying the "symbol" of money.
- Natsu 14y ago
  Still needs a couple more words: "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."
mcguire 14y ago
No, really. There's a press in the closet. It's kind of a pain to get the paper, but, heck, it beats work.
wpietri 14y ago
Well, the actual quote is "the love of money is the root of all evil." And there are two ways to get money. One is to create value. The other is to make other people's money yours. The latter is very popular among people who love money. (Hello, Wall Street!) Which is part of how it's the root of evil.

I love how the Americans say they're "making money". That's exactly what you're doing. Money is the product of people who create something of value. Don't think of it as "the root of all evil" ;-)

justsee 14y ago

This is where we should wheel out Francisco's money speech in Atlas Shrugged: http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speech/ http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speec... (I'm not an Ayn Rand fan and found lots of her ideas in Atlas Shrugged ridiculous, but thought that speech was rather good).

Prophasi 14y ago
Apropos citation. Would've been an even better one without the disclaimer. The money speech contains the essence of the overriding philosophy in the novel at large; I'm curious what you found ridiculous in the rest of the book that isn't stated here (at least in its logical precepts).
- justsee 14y ago
  The money speech helped me get over an irrational, subconscious distaste for money but at the same time I recognized it for the capitalist fairytale that it is. So I suppose it helped me in a way that "The Automatic Millionaire" and other books helped jaysonelliot. Gruseom has apparently never read Rand, but manages a brief, wonderful analysis of Rand's flaws and absurdities above that captures the essence of what I found more absurd as the novel progresses to its conclusion. However I still keep the concept of moochers and looters in my head, and think of them as we lurch from one global financial crisis to another.
  - seagreen 14y ago
    "The money speech helped me get over an irrational, subconscious distaste for money but at the same time I recognized it for the capitalist fairytale that it is." Funny, the best summary of Rand I've read (maybe on Samizdata - I can't find the exact quote though) is that her writing is a really good antidote to certain ideologies, but it shouldn't be mistaken for food. EDIT: s/Samizata/Samizdata
  - demigod 14y ago
    exactly!!! It helped me too, to put money in its place, I had a problem with spending money.
gruseom 14y ago
You got me curious. I don't have the fortitude to read through all of that but I dipped in here and there. What leapt out at me is how utterly Russian it is. The speech reads like an English translation of an ideological Russian novel, which I suppose in some sense it is. Rand comes across as a shrill and graphomanic anti-Dostoevsky. (Dostoevsky was a polar opposite kind of conservative to AR, if she can be called conservative, and boy would he have had a field day with this.) Rand's desire to take her idea as far as it can possibly go, in classic can't-make-an-omelette-without-breaking-eggs style, is as Russian as vodka. Think Bazarov the nihilist in "Fathers and Sons". Or better, Chernyshevsky's "What is to be Done?" which is famous for two things: having inspired generations of Russian revolutionaries and being a bit of a literary embarrassment. Here's an example. This is interesting and at least plausible: No other language or nation had ever used these words ["to make money"] before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity [...] Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. But she follows it with a non sequitur so stupid that one wonders whether it is parody: The words ‘to make money’ hold the essence of human morality. This kind of totalism isn't particularly American; there are no checks and balances for miles. Rather, it's a foreign species that has flourished in certain American soils. It's easy to see why the greed-is-good financialization crowd would go in for someone who writes things like "Money is the product of virtue". Much more interesting is the question of its popular appeal. There I think you have to look at what Steinbeck famously pointed out, that America doesn't have poor, it has temporarily embarrassed millionaires. There's an awesome novel to be written by someone with the ability to grasp all this at its root. Rand didn't write such a novel but she would make a great character in it.
- guscost 14y ago
  Ayn Rand was one hell of a romantic...
- adavies42 14y ago
  > The speech reads like an English translation of an ideological Russian novel, which I suppose in some sense it is. Rand comes across as a shrill and graphomanic anti-Dostoevsky. (Dostoevsky was a polar opposite kind of conservative to AR, if she can be called conservative, and boy would he have had a field day with this.) Rand was a fan of Dostoevsky (see The Romantic Manifesto http://www.amazon.com/dp/0451149165 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0451149165). (By comparison, she couldn't stand Tolstoy, and considered Anna Karenina one of the (morally) worst books ever written.) Sciabarra's Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical http://www.amazon.com/dp/0271014415 http://www.amazon.com/dp/0271014415 considers her from a perspective that sounds similar to yours. (I haven't read it myself.)

citizens 14y ago

It's not that money is the root of all evil, but rather "the love of money is the root of all evil" 1 Timothy 6:10. Never imagined myself quoting the bible.

TruthElixirX 14y ago
Love of money is not the root of all evil.
- bgilroy26 14y ago
  I don't think the quote is meant to be anti-money. I think a true "love of money" would be recognizes it for what it is: a vehicle. The root of all evil is an obsessive/addictive love of money. Any addiction is classically considered evil, but love of money is the most dangerous because it is the most formless and abstract. Workaholism is pretty abstract, but at least you need to appear to be doing something. In our times as in all others, it is possible to chase money by doing nothing of value at all. Traditionally speaking (i.e. in the historical context of the Bible a la Dante et al) the only way for something to be bad is to take something good and twist it out of it's shape, or pull it from it's right place.
- kbd 14y ago
  The whole "the root of all evil" comes from bad translation in the King James. Modern translations usually translate it as "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" (NIV) or "the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils" (ESV). Here's a parallel comparison of the NIV, ESV, KJV, and the NKJV[1]. Note that the New King James even updated the phrase to be more accurate, and it now mirrors the other translations. [1] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:10&version=NIV;ESV;KJV;NKJV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:...
  - kbd 14y ago
    Since I can no longer edit: In fact, a better translation is probably "of all these evils", referring to those mentioned in the preceding context. The NASB notes that the literal is "the evils", and that's exactly how Young's Literal Translation translates it[1]. The Aramaic Bible in Plain English, which I've never heard of, has a great translation of this[2]. Here's Clarke's commentary[3] as well: > The love of money is the root of all evil - Perhaps it would be better to translate παντων των κακων, of all these evils; i.e. the evils enumerated above... Anyway, sorry for the diversion from "hacker news" territory but I think it's interesting to know that not only is this widely-quoted verse not as widely applicable as is usually quoted ("money (or love of money) is the root of all evil"), nor is it even a general statement about love of money ("love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"), but it seems to be specifically just about the evils mentioned in the immediate context ("love of money is the root of all these evils"). [1] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:6-10&version=NASB;YLT;NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:... [2] http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/6.htm http://aramaic-plain-english.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/6.h... [3] http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/ti1006.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/clarke/ti1006.htm

lcargill99 14y ago

Money is not the root of all evil. The love of money is the root of all evil. This is something like being obsessed with money, or reifying the "symbol" of money.

Natsu 14y ago
Still needs a couple more words: "the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."

mcguire 14y ago

No, really. There's a press in the closet. It's kind of a pain to get the paper, but, heck, it beats work.

wpietri 14y ago

Well, the actual quote is "the love of money is the root of all evil." And there are two ways to get money. One is to create value. The other is to make other people's money yours. The latter is very popular among people who love money. (Hello, Wall Street!) Which is part of how it's the root of evil.