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The “violent and disruptive” student is also a child with a right to an education. See here's the thing. Not they don't. They forfeit that right by being viole

The “violent and disruptive” student is also a child with a right to an education. See here's the thing. Not they don't. They forfeit that right by being violent and disruptive.

autoexec 2y ago
Literal children are incapable of forfeiting their rights by being "violent and disruptive", and it would be insane if they could because they can't possibly begin to understand what they'd be giving up. Clearly that right is sometimes taken from them anyway, but that's neither the fault or a failure of the child. Often kids who get their right to education taken from them are failed by their parents and/or by the schools, but the blame cannot be placed on the child for that. Every child, excepting those with significant mental illness or intellectual limitation, can and should be successfully educated. Any educational system that is incapable of handling a child's tantrum or helping a child in crisis is a failed system.
- cyberax 2y ago
  > Literal children are incapable of forfeiting their rights by being "violent and disruptive" They can. And do. We have 12-year-old "children" literally robbing stores around here. If this happens, they should exercise their right to education from inside a locked institution.
  - gunian 2y ago
    sometimes i think im sheltered and i am but then i see stuff like this and feel good
- UltraSane 2y ago
  What about the other children's right to education this being impinged by the disruptive students?
  - frereubu 2y ago
    It isn't an either / or. Expelled children have to go somewhere. So you provide education / rehabilitation facilities where they hopefully manage to get their behaviour under control and can be brought back into mainstream education or stay in those institutions where they can at least get a bit of an education rather than just being left to roam the streets. Whether there's the appetite to fund that kind of institution properly is another matter.
    - Clubber 2y ago
      This is what they did in my school district when I was growing up. You had 3 tiers. First tier is regular school. If you get expelled, you go to tier 2 which is a school for people who got expelled. If you get expelled from there, you go to tier 3 school, which is where all the really bad kids go. This worked pretty well, keeping in mind all the students' needs in mind. They did away with that since I was young and now they just let the disruptive kids run rampant. Keep in mind, you only have one chance really to get an education. If your learning is impeded by uncontrollable children, you now have a greater risk of life failure because you weren't able to learn the fundamentals, because a class of 30 was always being disrupted by one or two people. Say you didn't learn pre-Algebra well because of disruption; now you're behind when it comes to the higher level math for the rest of your school tenure and ultimately, life. These disruptions could have major long term consequences for other kids trying to learn. Finally, teachers' average turnaround is 4 years last time I checked. That means there are very few veteran teachers available to show new teachers the ropes and how to manage a classroom full of teenage kids. Not that it matters, the new teachers will look for other careers within 4 years on average. The cycle continues.
      - munificent 2y ago
        > If you get expelled, you go to tier 2 which is a school for people who got expelled. So if you're a kid who's already struggling, you get sent to be surrounded by other kids who are already struggling. > you only have one chance really to get an education. That's true for the bad kids too. I 100% get where you're coming from. My kids come home from school and tell stories about disruptive stuff other kids do and how much it gets in the way of the school functioning effectively. At the same time... what are we supposed to do with those kids? The kids that have behavioral problems are much more likely to be that way because they have a bad home life. So if you expel them, they're missing out on education and they're spending more time in a bad environment. They're not going to get any better after that. Then what? Now they're a year behind academically and have the shame of being expelled. Their behavior is likely even worse because they spent a year not being socialized in a bad environment. So they're even worse next year, and they get expelled again. Eventually, they stop going to school entirely. But at least here in the US, the number of jobs available to people without any kind of school degree gets smaller every year. So now they can't find work. What do desperate people do? Commit crimes. So now we have a system that effectively just produces uneducated mentally unhealthy criminals.
smogcutter 2y ago
Thank you for demonstrating the point that there are constraints and complications that are difficult to appreciate from the outside. The law generally disagrees with you.
- UltraSane 2y ago
  And that really hasn't turned out very well. Letting the most disruptive students ruin the education of other students isn't fair at all to those students AND is pretty damn stupid when you consider how much tax money is spent educating those students and the harm to society from not educating them.
arkey 2y ago
To be clear, I am not about to justify any sort of violence anywhere. That said... Many violent and disruptive students were just kids with special needs. And I don't mean mental conditions or anything like that. I mean a kid that would do WAY better if he was in a trade class doing something that motivates them, rather than being frustrated and forced to endure a rubbish secondary education, several hours crammed into a small room with other people and getting nowhere. But of course that's more difficult to implement than a generic standardising/equalising pipeline of norm-conforming average citizen production.
- programjames 2y ago
  I think we should focus on students already trying to be a positive influence in the school, rather than catering to the bottom quintile. After all, that is how schools got in this situation in the first place.
  - arkey 2y ago
    My point was not clear. What I'm saying is that often it would be better for a certain profile of people to not be forced to attend what in my country is mandatory secondary education, and that it would be better to put them to work on stuff they might enjoy. But of course that would mean the system needs to contemplate individuals, instead of collectives, and the system doesn't like that.

The “violent and disruptive” student is also a child with a right to an education. See here's the thing. Not they don't. They forfeit that right by being violent and disruptive.

autoexec 2y ago

Literal children are incapable of forfeiting their rights by being "violent and disruptive", and it would be insane if they could because they can't possibly begin to understand what they'd be giving up. Clearly that right is sometimes taken from them anyway, but that's neither the fault or a failure of the child. Often kids who get their right to education taken from them are failed by their parents and/or by the schools, but the blame cannot be placed on the child for that. Every child, excepting those with significant mental illness or intellectual limitation, can and should be successfully educated. Any educational system that is incapable of handling a child's tantrum or helping a child in crisis is a failed system.

cyberax 2y ago
> Literal children are incapable of forfeiting their rights by being "violent and disruptive" They can. And do. We have 12-year-old "children" literally robbing stores around here. If this happens, they should exercise their right to education from inside a locked institution.
- gunian 2y ago
  sometimes i think im sheltered and i am but then i see stuff like this and feel good
UltraSane 2y ago
What about the other children's right to education this being impinged by the disruptive students?
- frereubu 2y ago
  It isn't an either / or. Expelled children have to go somewhere. So you provide education / rehabilitation facilities where they hopefully manage to get their behaviour under control and can be brought back into mainstream education or stay in those institutions where they can at least get a bit of an education rather than just being left to roam the streets. Whether there's the appetite to fund that kind of institution properly is another matter.
  - Clubber 2y ago
    This is what they did in my school district when I was growing up. You had 3 tiers. First tier is regular school. If you get expelled, you go to tier 2 which is a school for people who got expelled. If you get expelled from there, you go to tier 3 school, which is where all the really bad kids go. This worked pretty well, keeping in mind all the students' needs in mind. They did away with that since I was young and now they just let the disruptive kids run rampant. Keep in mind, you only have one chance really to get an education. If your learning is impeded by uncontrollable children, you now have a greater risk of life failure because you weren't able to learn the fundamentals, because a class of 30 was always being disrupted by one or two people. Say you didn't learn pre-Algebra well because of disruption; now you're behind when it comes to the higher level math for the rest of your school tenure and ultimately, life. These disruptions could have major long term consequences for other kids trying to learn. Finally, teachers' average turnaround is 4 years last time I checked. That means there are very few veteran teachers available to show new teachers the ropes and how to manage a classroom full of teenage kids. Not that it matters, the new teachers will look for other careers within 4 years on average. The cycle continues.
    - munificent 2y ago
      > If you get expelled, you go to tier 2 which is a school for people who got expelled. So if you're a kid who's already struggling, you get sent to be surrounded by other kids who are already struggling. > you only have one chance really to get an education. That's true for the bad kids too. I 100% get where you're coming from. My kids come home from school and tell stories about disruptive stuff other kids do and how much it gets in the way of the school functioning effectively. At the same time... what are we supposed to do with those kids? The kids that have behavioral problems are much more likely to be that way because they have a bad home life. So if you expel them, they're missing out on education and they're spending more time in a bad environment. They're not going to get any better after that. Then what? Now they're a year behind academically and have the shame of being expelled. Their behavior is likely even worse because they spent a year not being socialized in a bad environment. So they're even worse next year, and they get expelled again. Eventually, they stop going to school entirely. But at least here in the US, the number of jobs available to people without any kind of school degree gets smaller every year. So now they can't find work. What do desperate people do? Commit crimes. So now we have a system that effectively just produces uneducated mentally unhealthy criminals.

smogcutter 2y ago

Thank you for demonstrating the point that there are constraints and complications that are difficult to appreciate from the outside. The law generally disagrees with you.

UltraSane 2y ago
And that really hasn't turned out very well. Letting the most disruptive students ruin the education of other students isn't fair at all to those students AND is pretty damn stupid when you consider how much tax money is spent educating those students and the harm to society from not educating them.

arkey 2y ago

To be clear, I am not about to justify any sort of violence anywhere. That said... Many violent and disruptive students were just kids with special needs. And I don't mean mental conditions or anything like that. I mean a kid that would do WAY better if he was in a trade class doing something that motivates them, rather than being frustrated and forced to endure a rubbish secondary education, several hours crammed into a small room with other people and getting nowhere. But of course that's more difficult to implement than a generic standardising/equalising pipeline of norm-conforming average citizen production.

programjames 2y ago
I think we should focus on students already trying to be a positive influence in the school, rather than catering to the bottom quintile. After all, that is how schools got in this situation in the first place.
- arkey 2y ago
  My point was not clear. What I'm saying is that often it would be better for a certain profile of people to not be forced to attend what in my country is mandatory secondary education, and that it would be better to put them to work on stuff they might enjoy. But of course that would mean the system needs to contemplate individuals, instead of collectives, and the system doesn't like that.