5 ms·

What's so bad about a grammar test? Any competent person (excluding extenuating circumstances: dyslexia, etc.) should be able to pass a simple grammar test. It'

by Sunlis 14y ago

What's so bad about a grammar test? Any competent person (excluding extenuating circumstances: dyslexia, etc.) should be able to pass a simple grammar test. It's not some hardship that you have to study for or anything.

irahul 14y ago
It's more like I am applying for a programming job, and I don't see why I have to subject myself to your whims. Consider that instead of grammar, I am advocating I will only hire people who can do 50 push-ups. After all, what can I expect from people who are sloppy towards something as important their own bodies. What's so bad about 50 push-ups? Any fit person(excluding extenuating circumstances) should be able to do 50 push-ups. The thing is, I don't see the correlation between grammar and the job I am supposed to do, but more importantly, by doing that, you aren't warranting me the respect I believe I deserve. I have a particular job and screening procedure in mind. If you ask me to skip rope, irrespective of my ability do so, I will have to deny.
- clarkevans 14y ago
  What? If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code. In some hires I've used a descriptive writing assignment, where I ask the candidate to describe in words what they are looking at. You can learn much from these things, including: analysis skills, close looking, how they think, and, well, how well they would document their software.
  - irahul 14y ago
    > What? If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code. You are taking it to the extreme where there are only 2 states: grammar purists and monkeys banging at keyboard. Someone who mixes up "its" and "it's" is capable of all the important stuff you listed. I mix "its" and "it's" a lot while typing. I know the difference, my fingers don't. > analysis skills, close looking, how they think, and, well, how well they would document their software. And none of it is a result of good grammar. Are you implying that somehow good grammar leads to good analytic skills? Or are you saying talking with them gives you a window to their mind? If the latter, the window is wide open irrespective of how often I mix "it's" and "its". And how I prefer my period outside of quotes or parens(Why? Because I like it that way. That's why).
    - rys 14y ago
      So teach yourself not to make the mistakes because the next person in behind you working on your code might not know what you mean. If you know the difference it's just laziness to not communicate correctly. As for periods outside of parentheses or not, that's syntax, not grammar. Your position here is weak. Good grammar is an indication that the person wielding the language at least takes care over what they're doing. A valuable trait for anyone, no matter what.
      - irahul 14y ago
        > So teach yourself not to make the mistakes because the next person in behind you working on your code might not know what you mean. For the nth time, I am not talking about "monkeys banging on keyboard" grammar. > As for periods outside of parentheses or not, that's syntax, not grammar Syntax is not grammar? It isn't that hard to fact-check before confidently correcting someone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax > Good grammar is an indication that the person wielding the language at least takes care over what they're doing. Good grammar is an indication of good grammar, and that's that. If you believe it's otherwise, well, your believes aren't fact. Please provide citations.
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    "...If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code." Does the company in the original post not recognise the function of an editor?
- terryk88a 14y ago
  Absolutely you do not have to subject yourself to his whims. You would be free to walk out the door if you found the grammar test offensive, or the push-ups test, or the rope-skipping test. You do not deserve respect. Ever. You must always earn it.
  - Produce 14y ago
    Oh god. I hate this attitude. Respect is a right, not a privilege. Why should anyone have to earn something so basic? Do we also have to earn our privilege to breathe air? We're all equals and equally deserve respect. Yes, even you after you muttered that banality.
    - angersock 14y ago
      Equals? Hardly. Some people, for example, are worse than others at English grammar--thus the OP. What does respect mean to you, out of curiosity?
      - Produce 14y ago
        I would say that we're definitely not identical, but we can all be equal. A better question, though I will answer yours shortly, is what does equality mean? It's simply the relative value we assign something. The thing is, we can think in terms of valuable and not valuable or we can skip the duality altogether and see everything on an equal level. A spade is thoroughly unvaluable if you have no hole to dig yet indispensable when you do. So what is it's absolute value? Is it equal to a saw? Is one person equal to another? It all depends on your perspective. The problem with seeing inequality between people in terms of respect is that you will treat some of your fellow man badly, since you don't respect them. If their value is merely a matter of perspective, which is ever changing, would it not make more sense to see past our biases and show everyone respect, whether they are equal to what we currently identify as respect worthy or not? To me, respect means to consider someone in high regard. In my experience, how I look at people ends up affecting how they act. People always tend towards living up to the expectations placed on them. By showing someone that I don't respect them, I am pushing them down rather than helping them up. Putting it another way, when someone is on the defensive, because someone else looks down on them and does not show them respect, they close up and are not receptive to new information. By showing them respect even if they are bad at something, they are likely to listen to what you have to say and change how they act as a result of your words. Disrespecting someone with - "you type like an idiot" or ignoring them, will make them respond appropriately. Validating their actions - "cool, a more condensed form of English!" then suggesting something else - "I've had lots of success finding a job by writing like this", they might actually change. If we want society (and spelling) to improve, we have to embrace those we call idiots and teach them, not push them away. If someone is an awesome programmer but can't write English to save his life, why not educate him? You'll certainly have a more loyal employee if he feels that he's gained important skills from you. tl;dr - Disrespect is damaging, respect is nurturing. Respect everyone and the sun will shine brighter.
klawed 14y ago
What's so bad about it is that unfounded assumptions are being drawn from the performance of said test. Any competent person should be able to make a bed neatly and quickly. Would you apply for a (non-hospitalitly-related)job that required you to demonstrate your bed-making abilities?
- lotyrin 14y ago
  This seems to imply that programmers never write natural language or that their ability to do so is unimportant. If you're writing more code than natural language (documentation, discussion of specs, interaction with the team, etc) something is extremely wrong.
  - klawed 14y ago
    The idea of using grammar as a litmus test for all new hires is akin to saying that nothing is more important than natural language grammar. That could not be further from the truth. I've read plenty of extremely thoughtful, info-dense specs in the open-source community that had typos and grammar errors. I've seen countless emails from colleagues that were clearly quickly written and thus contained errors. The essential ideas were none-the-less transmitted. My mind is able to auto-correct when needed. Perhaps if the rules of english grammar were based on logic and reason rather than the memorization of arbitrary, capricious rules I'd be willing to attach more wait to the grammar skills of non-professional writers.
    - TeMPOraL 14y ago
      > I've read plenty of extremely thoughtful, info-dense specs in the open-source community that had typos and grammar errors. I've seen countless emails from colleagues that were clearly quickly written and thus contained errors. The essential ideas were none-the-less transmitted. And because people tolerate it and allow for this to happen, we live in such ugly world, where people don't give a damn about quality.
      - derleth 14y ago

by Sunlis 14y ago

irahul 14y ago

It's more like I am applying for a programming job, and I don't see why I have to subject myself to your whims. Consider that instead of grammar, I am advocating I will only hire people who can do 50 push-ups. After all, what can I expect from people who are sloppy towards something as important their own bodies. What's so bad about 50 push-ups? Any fit person(excluding extenuating circumstances) should be able to do 50 push-ups. The thing is, I don't see the correlation between grammar and the job I am supposed to do, but more importantly, by doing that, you aren't warranting me the respect I believe I deserve. I have a particular job and screening procedure in mind. If you ask me to skip rope, irrespective of my ability do so, I will have to deny.

clarkevans 14y ago
What? If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code. In some hires I've used a descriptive writing assignment, where I ask the candidate to describe in words what they are looking at. You can learn much from these things, including: analysis skills, close looking, how they think, and, well, how well they would document their software.
- irahul 14y ago
  > What? If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code. You are taking it to the extreme where there are only 2 states: grammar purists and monkeys banging at keyboard. Someone who mixes up "its" and "it's" is capable of all the important stuff you listed. I mix "its" and "it's" a lot while typing. I know the difference, my fingers don't. > analysis skills, close looking, how they think, and, well, how well they would document their software. And none of it is a result of good grammar. Are you implying that somehow good grammar leads to good analytic skills? Or are you saying talking with them gives you a window to their mind? If the latter, the window is wide open irrespective of how often I mix "it's" and "its". And how I prefer my period outside of quotes or parens(Why? Because I like it that way. That's why).
  - rys 14y ago
    So teach yourself not to make the mistakes because the next person in behind you working on your code might not know what you mean. If you know the difference it's just laziness to not communicate correctly. As for periods outside of parentheses or not, that's syntax, not grammar. Your position here is weak. Good grammar is an indication that the person wielding the language at least takes care over what they're doing. A valuable trait for anyone, no matter what.
    - irahul 14y ago
      > So teach yourself not to make the mistakes because the next person in behind you working on your code might not know what you mean. For the nth time, I am not talking about "monkeys banging on keyboard" grammar. > As for periods outside of parentheses or not, that's syntax, not grammar Syntax is not grammar? It isn't that hard to fact-check before confidently correcting someone. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax > Good grammar is an indication that the person wielding the language at least takes care over what they're doing. Good grammar is an indication of good grammar, and that's that. If you believe it's otherwise, well, your believes aren't fact. Please provide citations.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  "...If you're writing software being able to produce clear documentation, write-ups, and other supplemental materials is quite important. In some cases, far more important than writing the actual code." Does the company in the original post not recognise the function of an editor?
terryk88a 14y ago
Absolutely you do not have to subject yourself to his whims. You would be free to walk out the door if you found the grammar test offensive, or the push-ups test, or the rope-skipping test. You do not deserve respect. Ever. You must always earn it.
- Produce 14y ago
  Oh god. I hate this attitude. Respect is a right, not a privilege. Why should anyone have to earn something so basic? Do we also have to earn our privilege to breathe air? We're all equals and equally deserve respect. Yes, even you after you muttered that banality.
  - angersock 14y ago
    Equals? Hardly. Some people, for example, are worse than others at English grammar--thus the OP. What does respect mean to you, out of curiosity?
    - Produce 14y ago
      I would say that we're definitely not identical, but we can all be equal. A better question, though I will answer yours shortly, is what does equality mean? It's simply the relative value we assign something. The thing is, we can think in terms of valuable and not valuable or we can skip the duality altogether and see everything on an equal level. A spade is thoroughly unvaluable if you have no hole to dig yet indispensable when you do. So what is it's absolute value? Is it equal to a saw? Is one person equal to another? It all depends on your perspective. The problem with seeing inequality between people in terms of respect is that you will treat some of your fellow man badly, since you don't respect them. If their value is merely a matter of perspective, which is ever changing, would it not make more sense to see past our biases and show everyone respect, whether they are equal to what we currently identify as respect worthy or not? To me, respect means to consider someone in high regard. In my experience, how I look at people ends up affecting how they act. People always tend towards living up to the expectations placed on them. By showing someone that I don't respect them, I am pushing them down rather than helping them up. Putting it another way, when someone is on the defensive, because someone else looks down on them and does not show them respect, they close up and are not receptive to new information. By showing them respect even if they are bad at something, they are likely to listen to what you have to say and change how they act as a result of your words. Disrespecting someone with - "you type like an idiot" or ignoring them, will make them respond appropriately. Validating their actions - "cool, a more condensed form of English!" then suggesting something else - "I've had lots of success finding a job by writing like this", they might actually change. If we want society (and spelling) to improve, we have to embrace those we call idiots and teach them, not push them away. If someone is an awesome programmer but can't write English to save his life, why not educate him? You'll certainly have a more loyal employee if he feels that he's gained important skills from you. tl;dr - Disrespect is damaging, respect is nurturing. Respect everyone and the sun will shine brighter.

klawed 14y ago

What's so bad about it is that unfounded assumptions are being drawn from the performance of said test. Any competent person should be able to make a bed neatly and quickly. Would you apply for a (non-hospitalitly-related)job that required you to demonstrate your bed-making abilities?

lotyrin 14y ago
This seems to imply that programmers never write natural language or that their ability to do so is unimportant. If you're writing more code than natural language (documentation, discussion of specs, interaction with the team, etc) something is extremely wrong.
- klawed 14y ago
  The idea of using grammar as a litmus test for all new hires is akin to saying that nothing is more important than natural language grammar. That could not be further from the truth. I've read plenty of extremely thoughtful, info-dense specs in the open-source community that had typos and grammar errors. I've seen countless emails from colleagues that were clearly quickly written and thus contained errors. The essential ideas were none-the-less transmitted. My mind is able to auto-correct when needed. Perhaps if the rules of english grammar were based on logic and reason rather than the memorization of arbitrary, capricious rules I'd be willing to attach more wait to the grammar skills of non-professional writers.
  - TeMPOraL 14y ago
    > I've read plenty of extremely thoughtful, info-dense specs in the open-source community that had typos and grammar errors. I've seen countless emails from colleagues that were clearly quickly written and thus contained errors. The essential ideas were none-the-less transmitted. And because people tolerate it and allow for this to happen, we live in such ugly world, where people don't give a damn about quality.
    - derleth 14y ago