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I also read some interesting stuff about how much of pre-Constantine/pre-Paul versions of the religion resembled Neo-Pythagoreanism, which is a wild rabbit hole

I also read some interesting stuff about how much of pre-Constantine/pre-Paul versions of the religion resembled Neo-Pythagoreanism, which is a wild rabbit hole. That was a vegan, about as atheist as Romans could get, math loving cult which sounds today almost exactly like the religion's exact opposite, but the parallels are fascinating and the early shared beliefs that the Nicene Creed was also about stamping out are fascinating in today's hindsight. (You don't have to entirely imagine what that version of the church might have looked like, it is sort of what UU is for and where it came from, especially because of the U [Unitarianism] that was kicked out by the Nicene creed [for trinitarianism]. I do irregularly appreciate a good UU service.)

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
It's also an interesting thought experiment to frame Islam as the other (more successful) branch of non-Nicene unitarian monotheism. It popped up not long (historically speaking) after the final triumph of Nicene Christianity, after Arianism etc was stamped out. And blossomed in the historical heartland of Christianity (North Africa, Asia Minor, and Palestine / Syria). What we've ended up with is this interesting historical situation where Christianity is the "European" monotheism and Islam is seen as "foreign" and "other" likely on account of its association with the historical Orient. And yet it is that region where Christianity had its origins and was strongest for the first 500 years. I find the whole thing fascinating. But also, I believe in none of it.
- WorldMaker 2y ago
  Though it is also interesting to note that Islam is post-Paul and rather "Pauline" in its roots, too. There's always been a weird sense of "I learned it from you, Dad!" relationship between the two religions that maybe often isn't obvious enough at first glance. It's an irony that doesn't fail to escape me any time I hear a evangelical moron talk about fear of "Sharia Law". A lot of "Sharia Law" they would enact in this country if they could get the votes to do it, from many of the same bible passages, too. They don't understand how much it is the same picture. (Though some of the worst certainly understand the real difference is "white".)
  - cmrdporcupine 2y ago
    Yes I've said this to my mother before and it made her angry, but my sense of the deep anti-Islamic "vibe" in (at least) the evangelical Christian world is that it is more about them being competition than some ethical or philosophical fault. "Shariah law" is offensive not because it is alien to "western society" (because its not-liberal or whatever) but because the traditionalist/conservative/strict morality (and destruction of church/state division) it wants to impose is competition for the one they want to impose. In any case, just like Christianity, Islam has a spectrum of approaches of reading such morality passages.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago

It's also an interesting thought experiment to frame Islam as the other (more successful) branch of non-Nicene unitarian monotheism. It popped up not long (historically speaking) after the final triumph of Nicene Christianity, after Arianism etc was stamped out. And blossomed in the historical heartland of Christianity (North Africa, Asia Minor, and Palestine / Syria). What we've ended up with is this interesting historical situation where Christianity is the "European" monotheism and Islam is seen as "foreign" and "other" likely on account of its association with the historical Orient. And yet it is that region where Christianity had its origins and was strongest for the first 500 years. I find the whole thing fascinating. But also, I believe in none of it.

WorldMaker 2y ago
Though it is also interesting to note that Islam is post-Paul and rather "Pauline" in its roots, too. There's always been a weird sense of "I learned it from you, Dad!" relationship between the two religions that maybe often isn't obvious enough at first glance. It's an irony that doesn't fail to escape me any time I hear a evangelical moron talk about fear of "Sharia Law". A lot of "Sharia Law" they would enact in this country if they could get the votes to do it, from many of the same bible passages, too. They don't understand how much it is the same picture. (Though some of the worst certainly understand the real difference is "white".)
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  Yes I've said this to my mother before and it made her angry, but my sense of the deep anti-Islamic "vibe" in (at least) the evangelical Christian world is that it is more about them being competition than some ethical or philosophical fault. "Shariah law" is offensive not because it is alien to "western society" (because its not-liberal or whatever) but because the traditionalist/conservative/strict morality (and destruction of church/state division) it wants to impose is competition for the one they want to impose. In any case, just like Christianity, Islam has a spectrum of approaches of reading such morality passages.