4 ms·

To add to the not-so-great salaries, there are high taxes and social fees + VAT of round 20%… OTOH, the typical/mean competence in SW seems relatively low if c

by f1shy 2y ago

To add to the not-so-great salaries, there are high taxes and social fees + VAT of round 20%… OTOH, the typical/mean competence in SW seems relatively low if compared with high salaries countries. For example, as I was hiring last year, it was just impossible to get a candidate that have even heard about functional programming, or anything outside Python and C. A friend of mine was hiring EEs, and the best one he found (hold to your seat!) said an inductor is to resistors in series. There are exceptional good people, but they seem to bot be free in the market.

adrianN 2y ago
I work in Germany and my colleagues are all competent. Maybe the difference is that competent people are hired very early (before they become very competent?) and then tend to stick to the company that trained them?
- f1shy 2y ago
  That is what I said. I know very competent people. But if you search for new people, is HARD to get good ones.
ta1243 2y ago
According to https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# and https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 Someone on £100k a year in the UK will keep £68,561 Someone on £100k a year in California will keep £69,291.73 That doesn't feel a massive difference.
- Insanity 2y ago
  But earning 'only' £100k would be on the lower end in Cali.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    "The median salary for full-time workers in California is $66,986" -- https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california Salary difference isn't because of tax (employer NI contributions in the UK are high - £12,500 for £100k, but employer healthcare is high in the US) The assertion was that employee taxes were high in europe. Now they may be in mainland, but in the UK that's not particularly true, not at 100k range anyway. On the California median salary of $67k, in the US you keep $51,915, in the UK you keep $51,741, practically the same. At $500k, in California you'd keep $287k, in the UK $279k, so 3% difference there at the 8-times median CA wage, I'll admit that. At that salary though the employer contribution to tax in the UK is significantly higher than healthcare contribution in the US, so sure, probably around 10% difference in total. There's basically no difference in income taxes between the UK and US, that doesn't explain the massive salary difference.
    - Insanity 2y ago
      I thought this discussion was focused on engineering. Median salary of 67k for SDEs sounds .. low? Any Californians want to weigh in? :) EDIT: median salary in SF: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-francisco-bay-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra... would be >350k USD.
      - ta1243 2y ago
        The assertion was there are high taxes. There aren't, even for those on $500k a year.
        Insanity 2y ago
        Gotcha, sorry, missed that that was your point. Agreed, the taxes issue is kind of blown out of proportion. I'd rather pay more taxes and have good (/ cheap) healthcare and education to be honest.
    - gpderetta 2y ago
      In the UK, taxes are abnormally high in the 100k-125k band.
- Lionga 2y ago
  In Germany you'd keep less then 50K of that.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator says you'd keep £57,705, £10k less.
    - f1shy 2y ago
      Oh oh hold your horses. That is TAX, above TAX in Germany you will have to pay "social loads" for health, pension fonds, church, etc... You get to keep much less than that! Even when in UK is the same, you still have to pay the TV-tax, VAT 19%, fuel prices are high because of gigantic taxes, all of those do not exist in USA. Also in Germany public health is getting more expensive (there was an increase of 1% this year) and worse (although still good). Also education is getting more expensive slowly.
    - Lionga 2y ago
      it is just plain wrong
- syndicatedjelly 2y ago
  California has the worst taxation scheme in the US, living and working there is not the way to get ahead financially in America anymore
  - ta1243 2y ago
    According to that link, income tax in NYC at $200k is even higher ($69,160 tax rather than $68,504 in San Francisco)
oytis 2y ago
Either the pay you offered was too low or your recruiters didn't do their job. Multiple functional languages have been created in Europe, there is a big and competent Rust (which is not exactly an fp language, but is not Python or C either) community etc.
- f1shy 2y ago
  > Multiple functional languages have been created in Europe Which ones? just out of curiosity, because is totally irrelevant for the discussion: The car was invented in Germany, and for long years the best cars were German, but right now the industry is falling down non-stop... So there may be many people inventing whatever languages, when you search people to program, you just do not find good candidates. I'm not arguing that people in Germany does not know functional languages. I just say, if you search somebody, is hard to find. The pay was damn good 80k/year. I was in a company in south Germany, maybe that is the difference?
  - oytis 2y ago
    > Which ones? OCaml, Scala, Coq, Isabelle ... > The pay was damn good 80k/year. Check levels.fyi. Comments say it's skewed upwards, but that's what people working for international companies with respective skill set get. Employment is not marriage, people are always ready for a change if you offer conditions better that what they have. You wouldn't find a graduate in the US for this money. And I bet you are on site or at most hybrid, so are restricted to people living in your city if not town/village.
    - f1shy 2y ago
      > And I bet you are on site or at most hybrid, so are restricted to people living in your city if not town/village. Yes absolutely. That is why I said it was in south. That is a big problem. I know for a fact, that in Berlin there are much more good SW devs. but here around they are scarse.
      - oytis 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by f1shy 2y ago

adrianN 2y ago

I work in Germany and my colleagues are all competent. Maybe the difference is that competent people are hired very early (before they become very competent?) and then tend to stick to the company that trained them?

f1shy 2y ago
That is what I said. I know very competent people. But if you search for new people, is HARD to get good ones.

ta1243 2y ago

According to https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# and https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 Someone on £100k a year in the UK will keep £68,561 Someone on £100k a year in California will keep £69,291.73 That doesn't feel a massive difference.

Insanity 2y ago
But earning 'only' £100k would be on the lower end in Cali.
- ta1243 2y ago
  "The median salary for full-time workers in California is $66,986" -- https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california Salary difference isn't because of tax (employer NI contributions in the UK are high - £12,500 for £100k, but employer healthcare is high in the US) The assertion was that employee taxes were high in europe. Now they may be in mainland, but in the UK that's not particularly true, not at 100k range anyway. On the California median salary of $67k, in the US you keep $51,915, in the UK you keep $51,741, practically the same. At $500k, in California you'd keep $287k, in the UK $279k, so 3% difference there at the 8-times median CA wage, I'll admit that. At that salary though the employer contribution to tax in the UK is significantly higher than healthcare contribution in the US, so sure, probably around 10% difference in total. There's basically no difference in income taxes between the UK and US, that doesn't explain the massive salary difference.
  - Insanity 2y ago
    I thought this discussion was focused on engineering. Median salary of 67k for SDEs sounds .. low? Any Californians want to weigh in? :) EDIT: median salary in SF: https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-francisco-bay-area https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra... would be >350k USD.
    - ta1243 2y ago
      The assertion was there are high taxes. There aren't, even for those on $500k a year.
      - Insanity 2y ago
        Gotcha, sorry, missed that that was your point. Agreed, the taxes issue is kind of blown out of proportion. I'd rather pay more taxes and have good (/ cheap) healthcare and education to be honest.
  - gpderetta 2y ago
    In the UK, taxes are abnormally high in the 100k-125k band.
Lionga 2y ago
In Germany you'd keep less then 50K of that.
- ta1243 2y ago
  https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator https://salaryaftertax.com/de/salary-calculator says you'd keep £57,705, £10k less.
  - f1shy 2y ago
    Oh oh hold your horses. That is TAX, above TAX in Germany you will have to pay "social loads" for health, pension fonds, church, etc... You get to keep much less than that! Even when in UK is the same, you still have to pay the TV-tax, VAT 19%, fuel prices are high because of gigantic taxes, all of those do not exist in USA. Also in Germany public health is getting more expensive (there was an increase of 1% this year) and worse (although still good). Also education is getting more expensive slowly.
  - Lionga 2y ago
    it is just plain wrong
syndicatedjelly 2y ago
California has the worst taxation scheme in the US, living and working there is not the way to get ahead financially in America anymore
- ta1243 2y ago
  According to that link, income tax in NYC at $200k is even higher ($69,160 tax rather than $68,504 in San Francisco)

oytis 2y ago

Either the pay you offered was too low or your recruiters didn't do their job. Multiple functional languages have been created in Europe, there is a big and competent Rust (which is not exactly an fp language, but is not Python or C either) community etc.

f1shy 2y ago
> Multiple functional languages have been created in Europe Which ones? just out of curiosity, because is totally irrelevant for the discussion: The car was invented in Germany, and for long years the best cars were German, but right now the industry is falling down non-stop... So there may be many people inventing whatever languages, when you search people to program, you just do not find good candidates. I'm not arguing that people in Germany does not know functional languages. I just say, if you search somebody, is hard to find. The pay was damn good 80k/year. I was in a company in south Germany, maybe that is the difference?
- oytis 2y ago
  > Which ones? OCaml, Scala, Coq, Isabelle ... > The pay was damn good 80k/year. Check levels.fyi. Comments say it's skewed upwards, but that's what people working for international companies with respective skill set get. Employment is not marriage, people are always ready for a change if you offer conditions better that what they have. You wouldn't find a graduate in the US for this money. And I bet you are on site or at most hybrid, so are restricted to people living in your city if not town/village.
  - f1shy 2y ago
    > And I bet you are on site or at most hybrid, so are restricted to people living in your city if not town/village. Yes absolutely. That is why I said it was in south. That is a big problem. I know for a fact, that in Berlin there are much more good SW devs. but here around they are scarse.
    - oytis 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]