4 ms·

Works for me on FF. As a EU citizen who no longer lives there, in part because of the poor salaries, I can't say I'm surprised by the EU 'brain drain'. The EU

Works for me on FF. As a EU citizen who no longer lives there, in part because of the poor salaries, I can't say I'm surprised by the EU 'brain drain'. The EU published a paper on this in 2024, about how they are leaking talent because the high-talented individuals by and large don't stick around. Not just salaries, the other issue is regulation and moving slowly. EDIT, the doc I referred to: https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/97e481fd-2dc3-412d-be4c-f152a8232961_en https://commission.europa.eu/document/download/97e481fd-2dc3...

geodel 2y ago
Where are these EU people going to?
- f1shy 2y ago
  Is a whole circle, people from IT and SP go to DE, from DE to CH, from CH to USA, or Australia.
  - raverbashing 2y ago
    Australia is really not that attractive software wise Seems to attract mostly the British and the Irish with an interest for sunnier but English speaking places
- Insanity 2y ago
  US is a big one, CA maybe secondary.
f1shy 2y ago
To add to the not-so-great salaries, there are high taxes and social fees + VAT of round 20%… OTOH, the typical/mean competence in SW seems relatively low if compared with high salaries countries. For example, as I was hiring last year, it was just impossible to get a candidate that have even heard about functional programming, or anything outside Python and C. A friend of mine was hiring EEs, and the best one he found (hold to your seat!) said an inductor is to resistors in series. There are exceptional good people, but they seem to bot be free in the market.
- adrianN 2y ago
  I work in Germany and my colleagues are all competent. Maybe the difference is that competent people are hired very early (before they become very competent?) and then tend to stick to the company that trained them?
  - f1shy 2y ago
    That is what I said. I know very competent people. But if you search for new people, is HARD to get good ones.
- ta1243 2y ago
  According to https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# and https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 Someone on £100k a year in the UK will keep £68,561 Someone on £100k a year in California will keep £69,291.73 That doesn't feel a massive difference.
  - Insanity 2y ago
    But earning 'only' £100k would be on the lower end in Cali.
    - ta1243 2y ago
      "The median salary for full-time workers in California is $66,986" -- https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california Salary difference isn't because of tax (employer NI contributions in the UK are high - £12,500 for £100k, but employer healthcare is high in the US) The assertion was that employee taxes were high in europe. Now they may be in mainland, but in the UK that's not particularly true, not at 100k range anyway. On the California median salary of $67k, in the US you keep $51,915, in the UK you keep $51,741, practically the same. At $500k, in California you'd keep $287k, in the UK $279k, so 3% difference there at the 8-times median CA wage, I'll admit that. At that salary though the employer contribution to tax in the UK is significantly higher than healthcare contribution in the US, so sure, probably around 10% difference in total. There's basically no difference in income taxes between the UK and US, that doesn't explain the massive salary difference.
Hamuko 2y ago
I'd love to make more money, but if it requires moving to the US, I am instantly much less interested. Not that I consider myself particularly high-talented.

geodel 2y ago

Where are these EU people going to?

f1shy 2y ago
Is a whole circle, people from IT and SP go to DE, from DE to CH, from CH to USA, or Australia.
- raverbashing 2y ago
  Australia is really not that attractive software wise Seems to attract mostly the British and the Irish with an interest for sunnier but English speaking places
Insanity 2y ago
US is a big one, CA maybe secondary.

f1shy 2y ago

To add to the not-so-great salaries, there are high taxes and social fees + VAT of round 20%… OTOH, the typical/mean competence in SW seems relatively low if compared with high salaries countries. For example, as I was hiring last year, it was just impossible to get a candidate that have even heard about functional programming, or anything outside Python and C. A friend of mine was hiring EEs, and the best one he found (hold to your seat!) said an inductor is to resistors in series. There are exceptional good people, but they seem to bot be free in the market.

adrianN 2y ago
I work in Germany and my colleagues are all competent. Maybe the difference is that competent people are hired very early (before they become very competent?) and then tend to stick to the company that trained them?
- f1shy 2y ago
  That is what I said. I know very competent people. But if you search for new people, is HARD to get good ones.
ta1243 2y ago
According to https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator# and https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 https://listentotaxman.com/?ingr=100000 Someone on £100k a year in the UK will keep £68,561 Someone on £100k a year in California will keep £69,291.73 That doesn't feel a massive difference.
- Insanity 2y ago
  But earning 'only' £100k would be on the lower end in Cali.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    "The median salary for full-time workers in California is $66,986" -- https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california https://www.incomebyzipcode.com/california Salary difference isn't because of tax (employer NI contributions in the UK are high - £12,500 for £100k, but employer healthcare is high in the US) The assertion was that employee taxes were high in europe. Now they may be in mainland, but in the UK that's not particularly true, not at 100k range anyway. On the California median salary of $67k, in the US you keep $51,915, in the UK you keep $51,741, practically the same. At $500k, in California you'd keep $287k, in the UK $279k, so 3% difference there at the 8-times median CA wage, I'll admit that. At that salary though the employer contribution to tax in the UK is significantly higher than healthcare contribution in the US, so sure, probably around 10% difference in total. There's basically no difference in income taxes between the UK and US, that doesn't explain the massive salary difference.

Hamuko 2y ago

I'd love to make more money, but if it requires moving to the US, I am instantly much less interested. Not that I consider myself particularly high-talented.