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> The suit also cites Allstate as gathering direct car use data from Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Jeep, Maserati, and Ram vehicles. Seems like

by rdtsc 2y ago

> The suit also cites Allstate as gathering direct car use data from Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Jeep, Maserati, and Ram vehicles. Seems like the bigger part of the story is at the bottom. You can uninstall GasBuddy from your phone but finding and buying a new car that doesn't track you is a bigger hassle.

ziddoap 2y ago
I like to post this investigation by Mozilla's "Privacy Not Included" whenever car privacy comes up, because it is actually horrendous. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... >Mozilla’s latest edition of Privacy Not Included reveals how 25 major car brands collect and share deeply personal data, including sexual activity, facial expressions, and genetic and health information
- throw5959 2y ago
  Huh, how? Why would someone have a vehicle with someone else's internet connected camera inside?
  - nemomarx 2y ago
    a lot of modern automatic driving stuff has cameras to track your eyes, and I think for built in dashcam stuff maybe? and if it's in the car it's Internet connected now.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Why would society not mandate cameras to make sure the operators of thousands of kilograms of metal at high speeds are paying attention to the road instead of their phone? And to be able to punish them if they are not. Assuming pedestrian and children’s safety is a priority.
    - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
      That can and should be done without phoning home. It's the invasion of privacy that's the issue, not the safety feature itself.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        That’s true, as long as the footage is saved to a device that is not tamper-able.
        dingnuts 2y ago
        [flagged]
        eric-hu 2y ago
        While I align with your views on this matter, talking to people this way is how you drive them to entrench in the opposite view.
    - skeeter2020 2y ago
      Did you just float "won't someone think of the children?"
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        Why wouldn’t I think of children? Isn’t one of the most common ruminations of modern society that children cannot roam freely due to excess risk of being hurt or killed by a distracted driver? https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/these-vehicles-may-pose-the-most-danger-to-pedestrians-112723.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/these-vehicles-may-pose... >IIHS says pedestrian crash deaths have risen 80% since hitting their low in 2009. The statistics show that 2021 was almost as deadly to people on foot as last year. Nearly 7,400 walkers — more than 20 people a day — lost their lives in 2021 after being struck by a vehicle. Airline pilots get recorded, why shouldn’t drivers?
  - burkaman 2y ago
    I don't think it occurs to the average person that when you buy a vehicle, some parts of it might still be "someone else's".
- caminante 2y ago
  Sex? How do they triangulate that from car telemetry?...blood pressure/heart rate signatures from face? Suspension rocking in a park at night? Maybe they pull it from your phone. I don't trust the manufacturers, but Kia seems to have said they have the right to collect sex info, but haven't. [0] > “To clarify, Kia does not and has never collected “sex life or sexual orientation” information from vehicles or consumers in the context of providing the Kia Connect Services.” [0] https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/nissan-kia-collect-data-about-drivers-sexual-activity/ https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/nissan-kia-collect-data-about-...
  - AnIrishDuck 2y ago
    Where you drive and how long you stay there at night, correlated with your partner's connected car. It's not a camera in the bedroom but you can pretty easily extract relationship graphs from geolocation tracking and proximity. US intelligence agencies have been doing it in the middle east for ages...
  - WillPostForFood 2y ago
    There are occupancy and weight sensors in the passenger seat to disable the airbag for children. Maybe if they see a high frequency pattern....
  - ourmandave 2y ago
    “For every GM vehicle, before any connected vehicle services are activated and before any data is ever collected, the vehicle owner must accept the OnStar Terms & Conditions and Privacy Statement. These detail our data practices and are available online for consumers to review before they even walk into a dealership.” It's all spelled out in an 4pt light grey font that you clicked through without reading. So it's your fault we know you're pregnant before you do.
- LeftHandPath 2y ago
  Great article. I remember seeing that a year or two ago but had long since forgotten about it. > Several car brands also note that it is a driver’s responsibility to tell passengers about the vehicle's privacy policies. "Hey Bill, before we go to lunch, gloss over my Nissan's EULA." I think I might start buying older cars and just swapping out the engine instead of putting up with the telemetry. If the car has a SIM card, I don't want it.
- brainbag 2y ago
  Even in the flood of terrible news about privacy and other things, this exposé stands out as especially disturbing. I was considering getting a new electric car to replace my combustion, but now I'm going to stretch it for as long as I can instead.
johnbrodie 2y ago
This seems to run completely contrary to Mazda's own Connected Services Privacy Policy, which states that by default (ie if you aren't paying the subscription for connected services, or never enrolled in it), they don't share info outside of Mazda, other than aggregate data for research purposes. Even the section discussing if you are an active subscriber indicates that your written consent is needed before it's shared with unrelated third parties. https://www.mazdausa.com/site/privacy-connectedservices https://www.mazdausa.com/site/privacy-connectedservices
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  There is a potential loophole: Third-party service providers: We may share your Personal Information with third-party service providers that we contract with to provide you with the Mazda Connected Services, as detailed in this Connectivity Privacy Statement. The Artity (allstate) SDK offers some utility like "fuel efficiency tips", but it is a cover to collect data.

by rdtsc 2y ago

ziddoap 2y ago

I like to post this investigation by Mozilla's "Privacy Not Included" whenever car privacy comes up, because it is actually horrendous. https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-wheels-every-car-brand-reviewed-by-mozilla-including-ford-volkswagen-and-toyota-flunks-privacy-test/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-on-... >Mozilla’s latest edition of Privacy Not Included reveals how 25 major car brands collect and share deeply personal data, including sexual activity, facial expressions, and genetic and health information

throw5959 2y ago
Huh, how? Why would someone have a vehicle with someone else's internet connected camera inside?
- nemomarx 2y ago
  a lot of modern automatic driving stuff has cameras to track your eyes, and I think for built in dashcam stuff maybe? and if it's in the car it's Internet connected now.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Why would society not mandate cameras to make sure the operators of thousands of kilograms of metal at high speeds are paying attention to the road instead of their phone? And to be able to punish them if they are not. Assuming pedestrian and children’s safety is a priority.
  - MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
    That can and should be done without phoning home. It's the invasion of privacy that's the issue, not the safety feature itself.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      That’s true, as long as the footage is saved to a device that is not tamper-able.
      - dingnuts 2y ago
        [flagged]
        eric-hu 2y ago
        While I align with your views on this matter, talking to people this way is how you drive them to entrench in the opposite view.
  - skeeter2020 2y ago
    Did you just float "won't someone think of the children?"
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      Why wouldn’t I think of children? Isn’t one of the most common ruminations of modern society that children cannot roam freely due to excess risk of being hurt or killed by a distracted driver? https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/these-vehicles-may-pose-the-most-danger-to-pedestrians-112723.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/these-vehicles-may-pose... >IIHS says pedestrian crash deaths have risen 80% since hitting their low in 2009. The statistics show that 2021 was almost as deadly to people on foot as last year. Nearly 7,400 walkers — more than 20 people a day — lost their lives in 2021 after being struck by a vehicle. Airline pilots get recorded, why shouldn’t drivers?
- burkaman 2y ago
  I don't think it occurs to the average person that when you buy a vehicle, some parts of it might still be "someone else's".
caminante 2y ago
Sex? How do they triangulate that from car telemetry?...blood pressure/heart rate signatures from face? Suspension rocking in a park at night? Maybe they pull it from your phone. I don't trust the manufacturers, but Kia seems to have said they have the right to collect sex info, but haven't. [0] > “To clarify, Kia does not and has never collected “sex life or sexual orientation” information from vehicles or consumers in the context of providing the Kia Connect Services.” [0] https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/nissan-kia-collect-data-about-drivers-sexual-activity/ https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/nissan-kia-collect-data-about-...
- AnIrishDuck 2y ago
  Where you drive and how long you stay there at night, correlated with your partner's connected car. It's not a camera in the bedroom but you can pretty easily extract relationship graphs from geolocation tracking and proximity. US intelligence agencies have been doing it in the middle east for ages...
- WillPostForFood 2y ago
  There are occupancy and weight sensors in the passenger seat to disable the airbag for children. Maybe if they see a high frequency pattern....
- ourmandave 2y ago
  “For every GM vehicle, before any connected vehicle services are activated and before any data is ever collected, the vehicle owner must accept the OnStar Terms & Conditions and Privacy Statement. These detail our data practices and are available online for consumers to review before they even walk into a dealership.” It's all spelled out in an 4pt light grey font that you clicked through without reading. So it's your fault we know you're pregnant before you do.
LeftHandPath 2y ago
Great article. I remember seeing that a year or two ago but had long since forgotten about it. > Several car brands also note that it is a driver’s responsibility to tell passengers about the vehicle's privacy policies. "Hey Bill, before we go to lunch, gloss over my Nissan's EULA." I think I might start buying older cars and just swapping out the engine instead of putting up with the telemetry. If the car has a SIM card, I don't want it.
brainbag 2y ago
Even in the flood of terrible news about privacy and other things, this exposé stands out as especially disturbing. I was considering getting a new electric car to replace my combustion, but now I'm going to stretch it for as long as I can instead.

johnbrodie 2y ago

This seems to run completely contrary to Mazda's own Connected Services Privacy Policy, which states that by default (ie if you aren't paying the subscription for connected services, or never enrolled in it), they don't share info outside of Mazda, other than aggregate data for research purposes. Even the section discussing if you are an active subscriber indicates that your written consent is needed before it's shared with unrelated third parties. https://www.mazdausa.com/site/privacy-connectedservices https://www.mazdausa.com/site/privacy-connectedservices

WillPostForFood 2y ago
There is a potential loophole: Third-party service providers: We may share your Personal Information with third-party service providers that we contract with to provide you with the Mazda Connected Services, as detailed in this Connectivity Privacy Statement. The Artity (allstate) SDK offers some utility like "fuel efficiency tips", but it is a cover to collect data.