4 ms·

> Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be l

> Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even look for you. Right on red should not really be allowed. It's a real hazard.

SoftTalker 2y ago
It isn't in much of Europe.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
mindslight 2y ago
IMO the problem isn't right on red itself, but rather that vehicles have to be in (and often completely over) the pedestrian crossing area to see oncoming vehicle traffic they have to yield to (at the distance required due to higher oncoming vehicle speeds). This encourages the behavior where drivers plan to have a single stop in that area, where they wait for an opening in vehicles to go - completely failing to take into account the possibility of having to stop before that area due to pedestrians actually using it. The situation is more like two separate stop and yields, and when drivers don't expect pedestrians they skip the first one.
- estebank 2y ago
  If there is no way of configuring the intersection so that right on red is safe for pedestrians, then the problem is the right on red.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    The point of looking deeper at the actual dynamics is to brainstorm ways intersections could be made safer, without overshooting and then getting a campaign to undo it all in 20 years. For example: Less visual obstructions so that oncoming traffic can be seen sooner? maybe, but probably not going to change learned behavior Advance the crosswalk even more, with two separate lights? perhaps on a per-intersection basis Hard square corner kerb instead of a round bevel? Might help in general.
    - estebank 2y ago
      > Less visual obstructions so that oncoming traffic can be seen sooner? This is called daylighting and California passed a law for it https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/daylighting https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/daylighting > Advance the crosswalk even more, with two separate lights? Pedestrians already have a "leading signal" in intersections with lots of people, which makes the wall signal change before the green for cars. Right on red defeats their purpose, which is to ensure pedestrians are on the middle of the street by the time a car wants to turn, putting them where they are easiest to be seen. > Hard square corner kerb instead of a round bevel? Yes. I would go further and have bulb outs https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/pedestrian-improvements-toolkit/intersection-bulb-outs https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/pedestrian-improve... and at grade crossings (the zebra crossing is at the same height as the sidewalk). All of these have been proven to work. > overshooting I don't think there is any risk of "overshooting" in making cities nicer and safer for pedestrians and all other road users in the US. If anything it will be an uphill battle to accomplish any change.
      - mindslight 2y ago
        I don't know why it feels like you're jumping on me here. Is it just CivE attracting people who overly focus on nouns? What you're calling an "at grade crossing" is indeed a good one I missed. I would call them something like crosswalk on a speed bump, which might be "car centric" or whatever, but at least isn't overloading a term that generally refers to using different levels for actual traffic separation. Everything we're talking about here is actually an at grade crossing. > I don't think there is any risk of "overshooting" in making cities nicer and safer for pedestrians and all other road users in the US. If anything it will be an uphill battle to accomplish any change. You really don't see the possibility of backlash to "no turn on red" everywhere creating a campaign of drivers getting frustrated while waiting for timed red lights to change at completely quiet intersections? And also FWIW, "no turn on red" doesn't actually prevent drivers from driving into the pedestrian crossing area - it just removes the benefit. It would still take a generation or two to change learned behavior.
        2y ago
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Not stopping before the pedestrian area is an instant ticket in my small town. They really promote walkability here. All of the issue listed seem to stem from lack of law enforcement. Our town also has bins at intersections with bright orange flags to increase your visibility as well as flashing 'pedestrian crossing' strobes initiated by button at problem location.
  - cloverich 2y ago
    > All of the issue listed seem to stem from lack of law enforcement When its a few bad apples its an enforcement issue. When its many bad apples its a design issue.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    Do you mean bins where people like, take an orange flag out, cross the street holding the flag, and then put the orange flag back in the bin on the other side? This is the first I'm ever hearing of that, and it sounds immediately ridiculous. But with further consideration I could see this being quite interesting for significantly changing the dynamic.
    - manwe150 2y ago
      Yes, the flashing lights are more common in my area, but either are a nice signal that someone wants to cross (and isn't merely waiting for their uber or to get in their own car)
    - grogenaut 2y ago
      It is completely rediculous and I take every opportunity to ham it the eff up when I use them. They're in in several of the nicer places on the east side of seattle but are being replaced by aggressive pedestrian flashers. I'm 6'2 but I take the opportunity to re-enact my favorite olympics floor ribbion routine.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    I understand bricks are far more effective than some flag.
smaudet 2y ago
The real issue are the road rage drivers who can't wait a minute and start honking behind you. We all get it, we are all late now and then, but unless you are literally trying to catch a plane or a boat, in all likelihood you can sit your candy ass down and wait a minute.
- archagon 2y ago
  I just keep my turn signals off and wait for green (or a very obviously safe opening). Let them think that I want to go straight.
mtalantikite 2y ago
It's not allowed here in NYC. I've nearly gotten mowed down by people from the suburbs driving into the city not knowing it's illegal here on a few occasions. They also seem to get pissed and honk at me, as if walking around NYC isn't the default mode of transportation.
- cloverich 2y ago
  To be fair I've seen NYC _pedestrians_ yell at other pedestrians for walking wrong, NYC isn't exactly an outwardly friendly place in that respect.
  - mtalantikite 2y ago
    Haha that’s fair. There are unwritten sidewalk walking rules that tourists and new transplants don’t always know. Once you start thinking of the sidewalk as a place that commuting takes place it makes a little more sense — people are late for work and that tourist walking while looking up or another with their face stuck in their phone is like a car driving 30 in the leftmost lane.
mrguyorama 2y ago
It hasn't been a problem here in Maine, but Portland is an extremely relaxed place. The intersection outside my apartment is quite literally a cliche'd Indian street style free for all with a set of lights that offer suggestions, but people wait for pedestrians and nobody honks.

SoftTalker 2y ago

It isn't in much of Europe.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

mindslight 2y ago

IMO the problem isn't right on red itself, but rather that vehicles have to be in (and often completely over) the pedestrian crossing area to see oncoming vehicle traffic they have to yield to (at the distance required due to higher oncoming vehicle speeds). This encourages the behavior where drivers plan to have a single stop in that area, where they wait for an opening in vehicles to go - completely failing to take into account the possibility of having to stop before that area due to pedestrians actually using it. The situation is more like two separate stop and yields, and when drivers don't expect pedestrians they skip the first one.

estebank 2y ago
If there is no way of configuring the intersection so that right on red is safe for pedestrians, then the problem is the right on red.
- mindslight 2y ago
  The point of looking deeper at the actual dynamics is to brainstorm ways intersections could be made safer, without overshooting and then getting a campaign to undo it all in 20 years. For example: Less visual obstructions so that oncoming traffic can be seen sooner? maybe, but probably not going to change learned behavior Advance the crosswalk even more, with two separate lights? perhaps on a per-intersection basis Hard square corner kerb instead of a round bevel? Might help in general.
  - estebank 2y ago
    > Less visual obstructions so that oncoming traffic can be seen sooner? This is called daylighting and California passed a law for it https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/daylighting https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/daylighting > Advance the crosswalk even more, with two separate lights? Pedestrians already have a "leading signal" in intersections with lots of people, which makes the wall signal change before the green for cars. Right on red defeats their purpose, which is to ensure pedestrians are on the middle of the street by the time a car wants to turn, putting them where they are easiest to be seen. > Hard square corner kerb instead of a round bevel? Yes. I would go further and have bulb outs https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/pedestrian-improvements-toolkit/intersection-bulb-outs https://www.sfmta.com/getting-around/walk/pedestrian-improve... and at grade crossings (the zebra crossing is at the same height as the sidewalk). All of these have been proven to work. > overshooting I don't think there is any risk of "overshooting" in making cities nicer and safer for pedestrians and all other road users in the US. If anything it will be an uphill battle to accomplish any change.
    - mindslight 2y ago
      I don't know why it feels like you're jumping on me here. Is it just CivE attracting people who overly focus on nouns? What you're calling an "at grade crossing" is indeed a good one I missed. I would call them something like crosswalk on a speed bump, which might be "car centric" or whatever, but at least isn't overloading a term that generally refers to using different levels for actual traffic separation. Everything we're talking about here is actually an at grade crossing. > I don't think there is any risk of "overshooting" in making cities nicer and safer for pedestrians and all other road users in the US. If anything it will be an uphill battle to accomplish any change. You really don't see the possibility of backlash to "no turn on red" everywhere creating a campaign of drivers getting frustrated while waiting for timed red lights to change at completely quiet intersections? And also FWIW, "no turn on red" doesn't actually prevent drivers from driving into the pedestrian crossing area - it just removes the benefit. It would still take a generation or two to change learned behavior.
      - 2y ago
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Not stopping before the pedestrian area is an instant ticket in my small town. They really promote walkability here. All of the issue listed seem to stem from lack of law enforcement. Our town also has bins at intersections with bright orange flags to increase your visibility as well as flashing 'pedestrian crossing' strobes initiated by button at problem location.
- cloverich 2y ago
  > All of the issue listed seem to stem from lack of law enforcement When its a few bad apples its an enforcement issue. When its many bad apples its a design issue.
- mindslight 2y ago
  Do you mean bins where people like, take an orange flag out, cross the street holding the flag, and then put the orange flag back in the bin on the other side? This is the first I'm ever hearing of that, and it sounds immediately ridiculous. But with further consideration I could see this being quite interesting for significantly changing the dynamic.
  - manwe150 2y ago
    Yes, the flashing lights are more common in my area, but either are a nice signal that someone wants to cross (and isn't merely waiting for their uber or to get in their own car)
  - grogenaut 2y ago
    It is completely rediculous and I take every opportunity to ham it the eff up when I use them. They're in in several of the nicer places on the east side of seattle but are being replaced by aggressive pedestrian flashers. I'm 6'2 but I take the opportunity to re-enact my favorite olympics floor ribbion routine.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  I understand bricks are far more effective than some flag.

smaudet 2y ago

The real issue are the road rage drivers who can't wait a minute and start honking behind you. We all get it, we are all late now and then, but unless you are literally trying to catch a plane or a boat, in all likelihood you can sit your candy ass down and wait a minute.

archagon 2y ago
I just keep my turn signals off and wait for green (or a very obviously safe opening). Let them think that I want to go straight.

mtalantikite 2y ago

It's not allowed here in NYC. I've nearly gotten mowed down by people from the suburbs driving into the city not knowing it's illegal here on a few occasions. They also seem to get pissed and honk at me, as if walking around NYC isn't the default mode of transportation.

cloverich 2y ago
To be fair I've seen NYC _pedestrians_ yell at other pedestrians for walking wrong, NYC isn't exactly an outwardly friendly place in that respect.
- mtalantikite 2y ago
  Haha that’s fair. There are unwritten sidewalk walking rules that tourists and new transplants don’t always know. Once you start thinking of the sidewalk as a place that commuting takes place it makes a little more sense — people are late for work and that tourist walking while looking up or another with their face stuck in their phone is like a car driving 30 in the leftmost lane.

mrguyorama 2y ago

It hasn't been a problem here in Maine, but Portland is an extremely relaxed place. The intersection outside my apartment is quite literally a cliche'd Indian street style free for all with a set of lights that offer suggestions, but people wait for pedestrians and nobody honks.