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Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when

Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when I have a walk signal on the cross-street than drivers who turn right on red.

RC_ITR 2y ago
On a green arrow turn, drivers are looking to where they are going. Legally crossing pedestrians are in that cross walk where the driver is looking. With right on red, the driver is also looking to where they are going, but legally crossing pedestrians are not there, they are directly in front of the car. The riskiest thing for a pedestrian is approaching a right on red car from the left, because the driver is simply not looking at you.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  The big problem with right on red is that it perfectly synchronizes them to hit each other. Say a driver and pedestrian are at the same corner facing the same way and the pedestrian wants to cross into the area the driver wants to turn. The street is busy so the driver can't turn right on the red and the pedestrian isn't gonna just walk against the signal into the traffic. Cross traffic lets up, either because of a big gap or because the light has cycled to red for the cross traffic. The conditions that both parties require before making their move have just been satisfied at the same time. The pedestrian walks and the driver turns, leading to inevitable conflict. If both the driver and the pedestrian are in a hurry and trying to shoot a gap in traffic and go quickly there can be no time for either party to avoid the accident. Edit: The above example is crosswalks only, no dedicated pedestrian signals.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    > Say a driver and pedestrian are at the same corner facing the same way and the pedestrian wants to cross into the area the driver wants to turn. That's not a thing that normally happens though. In a regular four-way intersection, if a driver is at a red light, the pedestrians that are allowed to cross are the ones that are crossing the street the car is on. If the car wants to turn right on red, then the pedestrians it has a risk of hitting don't care about the traffic that the car needs to wait for.
- gowld 2y ago
  This seems to not actually be the case in my experience, because right-turn drivers love to look to the left while turning right, because they are afraid of a fast-moving car appearing from the left, but they think they already verified that no slow-moving peds are crossing on the right.
mitthrowaway2 2y ago
It's usually because a driver turning (right) on green doesn't have to worry about merging into traffic, so they only need to focus on pedestrians. Hopefully they will. A driver turning right on red has traffic coming from their left and pedestrians walking in front, and they're usually more concerned about the cars, so they tend to look left while turning right. Ouch. It's a growing issue as well because of the growing size of cars. Littler people can be completely concealed behind a front grille. A car turning left on green is also an issue because while they should be able to see and wait for pedestrians, they're often occluded by other cars and trucks, and those left turners can be in a hurry to proceed through a gap in traffic.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  Also, while technically a right on red should require one to come to a full stop, then start their turn, in practice many people are doing rights on red at rolling stops at significantly higher speeds.
tanewishly 2y ago
Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? Because where I'm from, traffic lights are not allowed to be set up like that. No simultaneous green for crossing traffic flows, unless otherwise indicated (eg, an extra warning light+sign under the turn's traffic light flashing when it's green and off otherwise).
- sumeno 2y ago
  > Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? I can't think of many places that I drive where this isn't the case. The pedestrian crossing lights are in sync with the traffic lights, if traffic going N/S is green then the pedestrian lights going N/S will also be green even if cars are turning E/W
  - manwe150 2y ago
    I know at least one intersection that crosses a bike path and walking path near me that changed recents so now oncoming traffic goes with the walk signal while turns are forbidden, then only right turns are allowed, then only left turns. It takes slightly longer to go through the cycle (particularly on busy days where pedestrians don’t yield the street for people to turn), but otherwise makes it much less stressful to go through that intersection regardless of my mode of transit around it
- toast0 2y ago
  Yes. This pattern is normal in the US. While vehicles are traveling north and south, the walk sign for crossing north and south is available. But vehicles are typically allowed to turn in the same cycle, protected lefts with their own cycle are common. Some intersections have a dedicated arrow for right turns and those will signal no rights while a walk sign is on, but otherwise pedestrians and right turns conflict.
- gowld 2y ago
  Yes: https://ibb.co/86tqnBM https://ibb.co/86tqnBM Direct link: https://i.ibb.co/Hn36L27/Green-crossing.png https://i.ibb.co/Hn36L27/Green-crossing.png solid green (right turn allowed) + pedestrian green (for crossing). car and ped both have access to ped crossing. (Car should yield to any ped in crossing.) Also, I drew a picture before I realized that this wasn't what you were asking about. But I like the picture. C A R 2 | v --------- -------- CAR1 -> ---------|ped -> ------- | | | | | | C A R 2 --------- -------- C ---------| pAed ------- | R | | 1 | | |
dfxm12 2y ago
Drivers have to worry about the traffic which has the green light vs. just looking where they're going. My anecdotal evidence is that everyone is looking out for themselves and people in bigger vehicles will always take advantage of that.
dylan604 2y ago
The number of people that make right-on-reds that not once during the approach or during the turn look to their right is what makes it a problem. I have often been tempted to do one of those YT videos of people spending their day videoing people at intersections to show how prevalent bad behavior really is. I just have no presence there for it to make it worth my time. I know how bad it is, and adjust my personal behavior accordingly

RC_ITR 2y ago

On a green arrow turn, drivers are looking to where they are going. Legally crossing pedestrians are in that cross walk where the driver is looking. With right on red, the driver is also looking to where they are going, but legally crossing pedestrians are not there, they are directly in front of the car. The riskiest thing for a pedestrian is approaching a right on red car from the left, because the driver is simply not looking at you.

potato3732842 2y ago
The big problem with right on red is that it perfectly synchronizes them to hit each other. Say a driver and pedestrian are at the same corner facing the same way and the pedestrian wants to cross into the area the driver wants to turn. The street is busy so the driver can't turn right on the red and the pedestrian isn't gonna just walk against the signal into the traffic. Cross traffic lets up, either because of a big gap or because the light has cycled to red for the cross traffic. The conditions that both parties require before making their move have just been satisfied at the same time. The pedestrian walks and the driver turns, leading to inevitable conflict. If both the driver and the pedestrian are in a hurry and trying to shoot a gap in traffic and go quickly there can be no time for either party to avoid the accident. Edit: The above example is crosswalks only, no dedicated pedestrian signals.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  > Say a driver and pedestrian are at the same corner facing the same way and the pedestrian wants to cross into the area the driver wants to turn. That's not a thing that normally happens though. In a regular four-way intersection, if a driver is at a red light, the pedestrians that are allowed to cross are the ones that are crossing the street the car is on. If the car wants to turn right on red, then the pedestrians it has a risk of hitting don't care about the traffic that the car needs to wait for.
gowld 2y ago
This seems to not actually be the case in my experience, because right-turn drivers love to look to the left while turning right, because they are afraid of a fast-moving car appearing from the left, but they think they already verified that no slow-moving peds are crossing on the right.

mitthrowaway2 2y ago

It's usually because a driver turning (right) on green doesn't have to worry about merging into traffic, so they only need to focus on pedestrians. Hopefully they will. A driver turning right on red has traffic coming from their left and pedestrians walking in front, and they're usually more concerned about the cars, so they tend to look left while turning right. Ouch. It's a growing issue as well because of the growing size of cars. Littler people can be completely concealed behind a front grille. A car turning left on green is also an issue because while they should be able to see and wait for pedestrians, they're often occluded by other cars and trucks, and those left turners can be in a hurry to proceed through a gap in traffic.

bobthepanda 2y ago
Also, while technically a right on red should require one to come to a full stop, then start their turn, in practice many people are doing rights on red at rolling stops at significantly higher speeds.

tanewishly 2y ago

Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? Because where I'm from, traffic lights are not allowed to be set up like that. No simultaneous green for crossing traffic flows, unless otherwise indicated (eg, an extra warning light+sign under the turn's traffic light flashing when it's green and off otherwise).

sumeno 2y ago
> Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? I can't think of many places that I drive where this isn't the case. The pedestrian crossing lights are in sync with the traffic lights, if traffic going N/S is green then the pedestrian lights going N/S will also be green even if cars are turning E/W
- manwe150 2y ago
  I know at least one intersection that crosses a bike path and walking path near me that changed recents so now oncoming traffic goes with the walk signal while turns are forbidden, then only right turns are allowed, then only left turns. It takes slightly longer to go through the cycle (particularly on busy days where pedestrians don’t yield the street for people to turn), but otherwise makes it much less stressful to go through that intersection regardless of my mode of transit around it
toast0 2y ago
Yes. This pattern is normal in the US. While vehicles are traveling north and south, the walk sign for crossing north and south is available. But vehicles are typically allowed to turn in the same cycle, protected lefts with their own cycle are common. Some intersections have a dedicated arrow for right turns and those will signal no rights while a walk sign is on, but otherwise pedestrians and right turns conflict.
gowld 2y ago
Yes: https://ibb.co/86tqnBM https://ibb.co/86tqnBM Direct link: https://i.ibb.co/Hn36L27/Green-crossing.png https://i.ibb.co/Hn36L27/Green-crossing.png solid green (right turn allowed) + pedestrian green (for crossing). car and ped both have access to ped crossing. (Car should yield to any ped in crossing.) Also, I drew a picture before I realized that this wasn't what you were asking about. But I like the picture. C A R 2 | v --------- -------- CAR1 -> ---------|ped -> ------- | | | | | | C A R 2 --------- -------- C ---------| pAed ------- | R | | 1 | | |

dfxm12 2y ago

Drivers have to worry about the traffic which has the green light vs. just looking where they're going. My anecdotal evidence is that everyone is looking out for themselves and people in bigger vehicles will always take advantage of that.

dylan604 2y ago

The number of people that make right-on-reds that not once during the approach or during the turn look to their right is what makes it a problem. I have often been tempted to do one of those YT videos of people spending their day videoing people at intersections to show how prevalent bad behavior really is. I just have no presence there for it to make it worth my time. I know how bad it is, and adjust my personal behavior accordingly