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> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can ac

• afhsrtjwrtj 2y ago
  Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when I have a walk signal on the cross-street than drivers who turn right on red.
  • RC_ITR 2y ago
    On a green arrow turn, drivers are looking to where they are going. Legally crossing pedestrians are in that cross walk where the driver is looking. With right on red, the driver is also looking to where they are going, but legally crossing pedestrians are not there, they are directly in front of the car. The riskiest thing for a pedestrian is approaching a right on red car from the left, because the driver is simply not looking at you.
    • potato3732842 2y ago
      The big problem with right on red is that it perfectly synchronizes them to hit each other. Say a driver and pedestrian are at the same corner facing the same way and the pedestrian wants to cross into the area the driver wants to turn. The street is busy so the driver can't turn right on the red and the pedestrian isn't gonna just walk against the signal into the traffic. Cross traffic lets up, either because of a big gap or because the light has cycled to red for the cross traffic. The conditions that both parties require before making their move have just been satisfied at the same time. The pedestrian walks and the driver turns, leading to inevitable conflict. If both the driver and the pedestrian are in a hurry and trying to shoot a gap in traffic and go quickly there can be no time for either party to avoid the accident. Edit: The above example is crosswalks only, no dedicated pedestrian signals.
      • tsimionescu 2y ago
        > Say a driver and pedestrian are at the same corner facing the same way and the pedestrian wants to cross into the area the driver wants to turn. That's not a thing that normally happens though. In a regular four-way intersection, if a driver is at a red light, the pedestrians that are allowed to cross are the ones that are crossing the street the car is on. If the car wants to turn right on red, then the pedestrians it has a risk of hitting don't care about the traffic that the car needs to wait for.
    • gowld 2y ago
      This seems to not actually be the case in my experience, because right-turn drivers love to look to the left while turning right, because they are afraid of a fast-moving car appearing from the left, but they think they already verified that no slow-moving peds are crossing on the right.
  • mitthrowaway2 2y ago
    It's usually because a driver turning (right) on green doesn't have to worry about merging into traffic, so they only need to focus on pedestrians. Hopefully they will. A driver turning right on red has traffic coming from their left and pedestrians walking in front, and they're usually more concerned about the cars, so they tend to look left while turning right. Ouch. It's a growing issue as well because of the growing size of cars. Littler people can be completely concealed behind a front grille. A car turning left on green is also an issue because while they should be able to see and wait for pedestrians, they're often occluded by other cars and trucks, and those left turners can be in a hurry to proceed through a gap in traffic.
    • bobthepanda 2y ago
      Also, while technically a right on red should require one to come to a full stop, then start their turn, in practice many people are doing rights on red at rolling stops at significantly higher speeds.
  • tanewishly 2y ago
    Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? Because where I'm from, traffic lights are not allowed to be set up like that. No simultaneous green for crossing traffic flows, unless otherwise indicated (eg, an extra warning light+sign under the turn's traffic light flashing when it's green and off otherwise).
    • sumeno 2y ago
      > Are you saying that a right-turn can be green simultaneous with the pedestrian's crossing light being green? I can't think of many places that I drive where this isn't the case. The pedestrian crossing lights are in sync with the traffic lights, if traffic going N/S is green then the pedestrian lights going N/S will also be green even if cars are turning E/W
      • manwe150 2y ago
        I know at least one intersection that crosses a bike path and walking path near me that changed recents so now oncoming traffic goes with the walk signal while turns are forbidden, then only right turns are allowed, then only left turns. It takes slightly longer to go through the cycle (particularly on busy days where pedestrians don’t yield the street for people to turn), but otherwise makes it much less stressful to go through that intersection regardless of my mode of transit around it
    • toast0 2y ago
      Yes. This pattern is normal in the US. While vehicles are traveling north and south, the walk sign for crossing north and south is available. But vehicles are typically allowed to turn in the same cycle, protected lefts with their own cycle are common. Some intersections have a dedicated arrow for right turns and those will signal no rights while a walk sign is on, but otherwise pedestrians and right turns conflict.
    • gowld 2y ago
      Yes: https://ibb.co/86tqnBM https://ibb.co/86tqnBM Direct link: https://i.ibb.co/Hn36L27/Green-crossing.png https://i.ibb.co/Hn36L27/Green-crossing.png solid green (right turn allowed) + pedestrian green (for crossing). car and ped both have access to ped crossing. (Car should yield to any ped in crossing.) Also, I drew a picture before I realized that this wasn't what you were asking about. But I like the picture. C A R 2 | v --------- -------- CAR1 -> ---------|ped -> ------- | | | | | | C A R 2 --------- -------- C ---------| pAed ------- | R | | 1 | | |
  • dfxm12 2y ago
    Drivers have to worry about the traffic which has the green light vs. just looking where they're going. My anecdotal evidence is that everyone is looking out for themselves and people in bigger vehicles will always take advantage of that.
  • dylan604 2y ago
    The number of people that make right-on-reds that not once during the approach or during the turn look to their right is what makes it a problem. I have often been tempted to do one of those YT videos of people spending their day videoing people at intersections to show how prevalent bad behavior really is. I just have no presence there for it to make it worth my time. I know how bad it is, and adjust my personal behavior accordingly
• tantalor 2y ago
  Right on red is (or should be) never allowed during a pedestrian scramble. That's just asking for trouble. The box must be entirely clear of cars during the walk signal.
  • MrOwen 2y ago
    I'm nearby this intersection and there are 2 scrambles- this one and one about 2 blocks down closer to the university. There is very clear signage for cars that there are no turns allowed on red. I've crossed both intersections many times and rarely have I seen cars violating that rule. Perhaps they do but in my experience, they generally respect it.
  • danenania 2y ago
    Left turns on green (with no green arrow) are also pretty bad imo, as are right turns on green with no arrow. In both cases pedestrians are supposed to have right-of-way, but cars often don't respect it.
    • tantalor 2y ago
      That's part of what pedestrian scrambles so great: you always wait for the pedestrian phase before crossing. There is no pedestrian crossing in the car phase. The other great benefit is you can cross the diagonal (kitty corner).
      • WorldMaker 2y ago
        I think the interesting bit in this article is that "pedestrian scramble" is sort of the assumed default at a 4-way stop though the safety of that relies on drivers noticing Stop signs and also not treating them as Yield signs (and also not recognizing that Yield implies pedestrians, too). Why isn't it the default in the version of this intersection with lights instead of just stop signs? Why is it pedestrians have to "beg" for the scramble and cars just wait for a timer? Could this be red at all lanes by default and rely on something like weight sensors instead? (I'm also amused at the idea of making a beg button for cars. Maybe make cars have to text a phone number to beg the light the change. If cars had less annoying to the neighborhood horns you could have "horn recognition" and use the horn as a universal button.)
• RandomBacon 2y ago
  > maybe you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want the attention. Have you ever taken the selective attention test? https://youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo https://youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo (short 1:22 video)
• s1artibartfast 2y ago
  You have never had a driver wait?
  • memsom 2y ago
    In the UK, it is very rare for a pedestrian crossing that is controlled by a button press to not completely stop traffic. The first time I was in North America as an adult, I realised that when on a crosswalk drivers will come sailing at you and will cross behind you as you cross over. That is illegal here. The drivers need to wait for the pedestrians to cross, even on "Zebra" crossings (which are the ones with no buttons and striped lines across the road.) The only exception to this is if there is a traffic island in the middle of the road, and then they are treated as 2 different crossings. But quite often those are staggered, so the pedestrian can't just walk out directly from one side to the other. The trade off is that the pedestrian has pretty much no right of way anywhere but a crossing, and cars will drive at you (or at least not stop for you) if you try to cross somewhere that is not a crossing. Though "Jaywalking" is not a thing and you can actually cross where ever you like.
    • OJFord 2y ago
      > The trade off is that the pedestrian has pretty much no right of way anywhere but a crossing, and cars will drive at you (or at least not stop for you) if you try to cross somewhere that is not a crossing. That's not true, or at least it's bad/illegal driving if they do so, a pedestrian who is 'established in the road' as the right of way anywhere. As you said: > Though "Jaywalking" is not a thing and you can actually cross where ever you like. Otherwise it would be a contradiction wouldn't it? If the pedestrians allowed to be there, the motorist obviously isn't allowed to run them over, ... I suppose you could say the pedestrian can continue crossing but only after first giving way to the motorist? There'd be more time with pedestrians in the road though. Not that I recommend using that fact to cross when you don't have time, because you will anger motorists. Or they could not see you/be paying attention. They'd be wrong, but it's just not worth it, obviously.
      • memsom 2y ago
• throwawayffffas 2y ago
  > Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even look for you. Right on red should not really be allowed. It's a real hazard.
  • SoftTalker 2y ago
    It isn't in much of Europe.
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  • mindslight 2y ago
    IMO the problem isn't right on red itself, but rather that vehicles have to be in (and often completely over) the pedestrian crossing area to see oncoming vehicle traffic they have to yield to (at the distance required due to higher oncoming vehicle speeds). This encourages the behavior where drivers plan to have a single stop in that area, where they wait for an opening in vehicles to go - completely failing to take into account the possibility of having to stop before that area due to pedestrians actually using it. The situation is more like two separate stop and yields, and when drivers don't expect pedestrians they skip the first one.
    • estebank 2y ago
      If there is no way of configuring the intersection so that right on red is safe for pedestrians, then the problem is the right on red.
      • mindslight 2y ago
        The point of looking deeper at the actual dynamics is to brainstorm ways intersections could be made safer, without overshooting and then getting a campaign to undo it all in 20 years. For example: Less visual obstructions so that oncoming traffic can be seen sooner? maybe, but probably not going to change learned behavior Advance the crosswalk even more, with two separate lights? perhaps on a per-intersection basis Hard square corner kerb instead of a round bevel? Might help in general.
• SoftTalker 2y ago
  Here's how I handle right on red: When I have the walk signal, I look to my left for cars that might be turning right. If there are any, I look at whether the driver sees me. Try to make eye contact. If they are moving and apparently don't see me or are going to turn anyway, I wait. I may have the right of way, but I'm not going to win that battle.
  • kspacewalk2 2y ago
    I make it clear with body language and eye contact that yes I see them and no I'm not meekly yielding my right of way. However, I leave just enough space to avoid being hit, for those situations when the True Assholes knowingly cut me off anyway. Or maybe they're not assholes by intent, but instead in the 90th percentile for inattentiveness and bad driving habits, which may even be the same thing. I don't know, I'm not a driver psychologist.
    • danenania 2y ago
      I think a pretty large percentage of drivers don’t actually know that they’re supposed to yield to pedestrians when turning at lights. I’ve had multiple close calls where the driver looks at me angrily, I point at the white ‘walk’ symbol, and then their anger turns to confusion. They had no idea that they’re supposed to wait.
      • grogenaut 2y ago
        I live in seattle where people are pretty good about yielding. It's confusing as eff which lights and what times the peds are going to get a walk signal when I'm taking a right and when they're not. Some also go walk at the same time they go green for right turns. Some slightly delayed. It's hard to watch both lights as a driver and the oncomming traffic.
        • kspacewalk2 2y ago
          Rights on red are an inherently dangerous design flaw of North American traffic laws. It's not allowed in NYC and soon won't be allowed in DC and Atlanta.
• ensignavenger 2y ago
  A pedestrian scramble means that no vehicles should be moving through the intersection period. It is a time in the cycle where ALL vehicles stop, and pedestrians can use the intersection freely in any direction, including diagonally.
• accelbred 2y ago
  Worse yet, at least in Seattle, are right arrow lights that go green at the same time as the walk light. You get a green light to go and pedestrians start crossing at the same time. Having a green light and a walking sign on should be mutually exclusive.
• chasd00 2y ago
  >> Legally having the right of way doesn't make you any less dead when the driver who's got three other drivers to pay attention to doesn't see you. >Also, and I know this is unpopular, but maybe you shouldn't dress like that if you don't want the attention. in driver's ed you're taught to "drive defensively" i think the same applies to pedestrians. Don't just step into the road when the walk sign comes on, have some situational awareness and protect yourself.