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> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of what the intersection actually looks like here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/L37hZyvXs8BeWmFE8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/L37hZyvXs8BeWmFE8

xutopia 2y ago
One car enters the intersection on red.
- munchler 2y ago
  That's false. The stop line for cars is out of frame in the video, and the driver has already passed it by the time the light turns red. You can get a better view of what the intersection actually looks like here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/L37hZyvXs8BeWmFE8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/L37hZyvXs8BeWmFE8
  - DHPersonal 2y ago
    I think it depends on what one uses as the definition of intersection. Is it the actual point where the two roads collide, or is it at the stop line?
    - avgDev 2y ago
      You can't be serious. The stop line is where the intersection begins. If you cross the stop line on yellow you won't get a ticket and it is perfectly legal in most US states.
cosmotic 2y ago
Not only legal, but safer than slamming on one's breaks.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Generally speaking if you're going the speed limit you don't need to "slam on your breaks (sic)" to stop before a light turns red unless you didn't have enough time to clear the intersection anyway.
  - ajmurmann 2y ago
    Depends how far you are away from the light when it turns.
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      And, of course, your speed.
      - ajmurmann 2y ago
        Clearly both are a factor but you don't need both. Even if I go 20mph I have to slam on the breaks hard if the light turns when I'm just three ft away. The only way around this is to treat every light like a stop sign where you do a California roll Edit: As a related pet peeve I've never understood why we don't have countdowns for car traffic lights like we do for pedestrians. These IMO would not only increase safety but also fuel savings (especially if we had them for each signal change) as I could time my arrival at the traffic light to minimize braking and acceleration.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    Surely it depends how close you are to the line when the light turns yellow.
  - cosmotic 2y ago
    My partner slams on his breaks even though he goes below the speed limit and has plenty of time to clear the intersection. It's not just the speed.
kaonwarb 2y ago
Just rewatched and agree they both entered on orange, which is legal. This clear misinterpretation makes me question the author's take as a whole. Did they consider that cars also regularly run stop signs? Is it possible that this is, in fact, safer for pedestrians, albeit more frustrating while waiting?
- jagged-chisel 2y ago
  OT, but it fired me up a bit - people that enter the intersection on green or orange awaiting a break to turn left. And then don’t clear the intersection on red. Now they’re in everyone’s way. How do you get them to understand they’ve already “run the light” and just need to move?
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    Would you rather they floor it and beat the straight through traffic when the light turns green? 1-2 cars entering the intersection and then getting through when traffic clears on the red is less worse than the alternative.
    - jagged-chisel 2y ago
      One of us has misunderstood the other. Maybe I’m misreading you. Let me clarify my position. If you’ve entered the intersection on green or orange, and must await oncoming traffic before you can safely turn left, then the light turns red before oncoming traffic clears, once that traffic has indeed stopped for the red, you need to complete your left turn to clear the intersection, even on red. This situation is clearly spelled out in the driving manuals for my state. If you are not willing to continue on if the light turns red while you are in the intersection, then don’t enter the intersection until it’s clear - wait behind the line.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        For the last sentence, do you mean continue on straight if the desired left turn is not available?
ColdTakes 2y ago
You can not say this without the caveat that it is location dependent. This is an illegal action in some cities and states. Like in California, where that video was taken, yellow means STOP if you can safely do so. Both of these cars had ample time to stop and chose to accelerate to make the light.
- avgDev 2y ago
  How can you tell both cars had ample time to stop? We didn't see how close they were to entering the intersection in the video. They entered the intersection on a yellow light, which is perfectly legal if they could not stop.
DHPersonal 2y ago
I disagree. The first car doesn't even cross their side of the pedestrian crossing before the red light blinks on, so they have had ample time to prepare to stop and are running a red light. The second car is more debatable but also had enough time to stop, as the light turns red while they are still in the middle of the intersection.
- crackercrews 2y ago
  The second car definitely entered on yellow. It doesn't matter if they could have stopped. They have the right to enter on yellow. The first car passed the first line when the light was yellow, but not the second line. The area in between is the crosswalk. I can't tell if "enter the intersection" means "enter any part of the area past the line where you're supposed to stop" or "enter the part past the crosswalk, where the roads actually intersect". Does anyone know what the rule is?
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    The fact people can't figure what the rules are is a problem in itself vs a stop sign where everybody knows you should stop.
    - crackercrews 2y ago
      I know where to stop. I stop before the crosswalk What is less clear is what the word intersection means in a technical sense. Complicated or ambiguous rules are a part of life. If the idea is to get rid of anything that requires lots of rules, then we'd all still be on foot. No cars, no horses, no bikes. Would that be a net improvement?
  - toast0 2y ago
    It's well spelled out in vehicle code 21453 (a) > A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b). [subdivision b allows for turns on red] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21453 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....
SoftTalker 2y ago
Yellow generally means do not enter the intersection unless you are so close that you cannot reasonably stop. It is not legal to enter the intersection if you cannot clear it before the signal turns red. Exact rules and enforcement vary by state.
- cge 2y ago
  > It is not legal to enter the intersection if you cannot clear it before the signal turns red. That does not appear to be the case in California, which this article is written about. It seems to be a bit confusing, because there are suggestions that the driver handbook suggests that you should follow the rule you note, but that the law itself has no such requirement. In practice, in many areas of coastal California almost no one would stop at a yellow unless they felt they could not enter the intersection before it turned red, and doing otherwise would likely be seen as impeding traffic by many other drivers.
- jbritton 2y ago
  In CA we have many intersections where one wants to turn left, but there is not a dedicated left turn signal. When the light turns green, you pull out into the intersection. Ideally you pull out enough that the car behind you can also get into the intersection. On busy roads you may not be able to complete the left turn until the signal goes red. If you chose not to pull out, then nobody would ever be able to turn left. I believe CA passed a law some 20 plus years ago that you must be able to clear the intersection before the red light, which is in conflict with what is sometimes necessary. There are situations though where the direction you are headed is backed up, such that if you pulled out you could end up stuck in the middle of the intersection long after the red light. I believe the law was intended for this situation. So don’t pull out if your direction of travel is blocked.
UseofWeapons1 2y ago
I had to look this up. In California in particular, this is true, which surprised me. Per a random law firm: California’s yellow light law permits drivers to enter an intersection during a yellow light. No violation exists unless any part of the car is over the stopping line when the light turns red. However, the law encourages drivers to slow down before reaching the intersection. Whereas in, for example, Massachusetts, this would be considered running a red light. https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:text=California's%20yellow%20light%20law%20permits,down%20before%20reaching%20the%20intersection https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:tex....
- kurthr 2y ago
  I'm wondering how you would know when the yellow light was going to come on. Do you have some sort of countdown, or innate knowledge? Because, otherwise do you just randomly stop at green lights guessing that a yellow light might come on? Or do you drive so slowly that you can stop in the width of the white line before a pedestrian crossing? Really, I'm trying to figure out how you don't ever enter just as a light turns yellow. Once you do, do you stop in the intersection or try to clear it before it turns red? I hope the latter. For me yellow lights are a warning that a red light is coming. It should be long enough for cars to clear the intersection (in many states without gridlock rules even this is not the case for left hand turns). My experience in Boston is that drivers try to beat the green light change and accelerate while it's still red.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    > For me yellow lights are a warning that a red light is coming Correct, yellow means "start slowing and stop before the intersection if you can do so safely, otherwise proceed". Red means "do not proceed if you aren't already in the intersection". This is why the opposing traffic signal and walk signal will wait for a second or two after red: to allow people who entered on yellow to finish their transit across the intersection. Indeed, in the author's own video where they incorrectly claim someone ran a red light, the author had no legal right to cross anyways, so there was no chance of the author getting injured unless they ran a red light at the crosswalk. In short, the author seems most frustrated that the situation changed from everyone waiting on him, to him waiting a few seconds for others.
runako 2y ago
The way I learned this was "in legal, out legal," meaning that you are not allowed to be driving in the intersection while the light is red (aka you have to be finished transiting by the time the light changes). Is this not the law in California?
- avgDev 2y ago
  I believe most states it is LEGAL to enter the intersection(normally marked by a white line) before the light turns red. Cross traffic MUST wait for cars to clear the intersection.
- mrWiz 2y ago
  In my state you are allowed to exit the intersection while the light is red but may only enter while it's green or yellow. In driver's ed they taught us to enter the intersection while waiting to make a left turn so that we could complete the turn after the light turned yellow/red and opposing traffic stopped.
  - avgDev 2y ago
    It is the same in most US states.
- toast0 2y ago
  My understanding is that California has two relevant laws for this discussion: 21453 (a) which prohibits crossing the stop line when the light is red [1]. And 22526 (a) which prohibits entering an intersection when the exit isn't clear. [2] You have to be able to clear the intersection if you enter it, and you have to enter it on green or yellow (except for turn on red after a stop), but you don't have to clear the intersection before it goes red. Common practice (which might not be 100% legal) for unprotected lefts on green (where space permits) is for the first car to fully enter the intersection and the second car to roll over the line a bit, then for both vehicles to clear the intersection when opposing traffic stops which may be in yellow or red. The driver that's only a bit in the intersection can make a judgement call and stay slightly encroaching rather than clear the intersection if clearing seems inadvisable because opposing traffic was slow to stop. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21453 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... [2] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=22526 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....
hevang 2y ago
Legality aside, is that not kind of the issue here? Lights in a high foot traffic area could incentivize people to speed up to make it before the red, which is less predictable and has cars traveling at faster speeds compared to a stop sign, which requires all cars to stop. Embellished yes, but point of the article showing that this intersection is now more dangerous to pedestrians stands imo.
- munchler 2y ago
  Using stop lights to control this sort of high-traffic intersection is totally normal in the US. Stop signs are typically used for lower-traffic intersections. Subjectively speaking, I think drivers are more likely to obey a red light than a stop sign. Perhaps the author of this article is upset that the neighborhood now has more traffic than it used to, but that's a different issue.
  - boredpeter 2y ago
    [dead]
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    No, drivers in that neighborhood were used to stop at every stop while now a lot are passing through that intersection much faster to avoid the red light.
  - hevang 2y ago
    I'm not sure I've seen evidence that running stop signs is more likely, but even if that is the case which one is higher risk? I'd subjectively say running red lights is more dangerous as you have a higher chance of several pedestrians entering the cross walk all at once, or several cars going at once, since it causes people/cars to move in waves. I think its pretty clear that the author is upset that a stop light that increases risk for pedestrians, cost the school and city money, and provides minimal time advantage for cars was implemented. Also, I'd like to point out that normal does not mean good, or best.
BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
Both may be legal, but the first one is unclear and is definitely unsafe. Safety requirements dictate a slightly different understanding of yellow light than is commonly used by drivers. For safety, yellow must mean "begin controlled deceleration immediately". The first driver had plenty of time on yellow to not be just barely entering the intersection on red. They clearly were not decelerating and had very likely sped up to beat the light. This unquestionably is a thing that drivers do all the time, and it's dangerous.
- munchler 2y ago
  Again, please be aware that the video does not show the entire intersection.
  - BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
    It seems like you're stuck on whether someone broke a red light law, but this isn't an article about the legality of dangerous behaviors. It's an article about making intersections more dangerous. The first car isn't even through the crosswalk when the light turns red. Racing through a crosswalk to beat a light is the definition of dangerous driving.
- Ajedi32 2y ago
  Why is it dangerous? (Unless they're breaking the speed limit to make the light, obviously.) Just the risk that they might misjudge the timing and enter the intersection after the light turns red? But lights have a built in delay before turning green to account for that.
  - cptskippy 2y ago
    Because vehicles are often already traveling at or above the speed limit. Just as the yellow light is intended as a "start slowing down" but is interpreted as "speed up to beat the light", the speed limit sign is intended as a "do not exceed this speed" but is interpreted as "you must be traveling this speed". If we assumed that most vehicles are traveling the speed limit or faster, which is the case in my experience, then accelerating further is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
runako 2y ago
Freeze frame: https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh > the stop lines are out of frame Is the car in the freeze frame in a legal position given the red light? It would appear not.
- avgDev 2y ago
  There is another line before. We don't really see the entire intersection.
  - runako 2y ago
    Yes, you are correct. That's why I specifically did not address the car's entry into the intersection. Given the red light, is the car in a legal position in the freeze frame?
    - avgDev 2y ago
      Yes. I do not understand why this is so misunderstood in the comments. This picture is LEGAL in most US states as long as the car entered the intersection ON A GREEN OR YELLOW light.
      - runako 2y ago
        At least one California law firm disagrees, hence my question: https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:text=California's%20yellow%20light%20law%20permits,down%20before%20reaching%20the%20intersection https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:tex.... Some quick Googling shows that "it depends on where" appears to be the right answer. New Jersey appears to be a populated jurisdiction where this might not be legal.
        avgDev 2y ago
        As I said MOST US states. I looked at the link and NO, they DO NOT DISAGREE. Read the language, drivers SPEEDING through a yellow light MAY be found negligent if they cause an injury to someone. "California’s yellow light law permits drivers to enter an intersection during a yellow light. No violation exists unless any part of the car is over the stopping line when the light turns red. However, the law encourages drivers to slow down before reaching the intersection. In California, the yellow light law provides that drivers are automatically “warned” by the light turning yellow that the traffic light is about to change to red. This means that a faulty driver cannot avoid responsibility for an accident simply by claiming that they didn’t see the yellow light. It doesn’t matter if they saw it or not. Drivers speeding through a yellow light may be found negligent for not slowing down if their driving caused an accident or injured others."
bloak 2y ago
I've sometimes wondered what the exact rule is with red lights. Presumably you're allowed to continue moving forwards if the front of your vehicle passed the stop line before the light turned red. But if you stopped with the stop line passing through your vehicle are you allowed to start moving forwards again while the light is red? (Whether that would be a sensible thing to do would depend on whether you're driving a long vehicle with just a tiny part of it behind the stop line, or a motorbike with just a tiny part of it in front of the stop line, but does the law distinguish those two cases?)
- simiones 2y ago
  I don't think the law is so specific, but I suspect the right interpretation would be that you should pass through the intersection if the car is in a position where it would block other traffic the moment the light turns red; in any other circumstance, you should stop if the light is red, even if you passed the location where you'd normally wait. For example, say you're entering the intersection on green/yellow, but the car in front suddenly stops while you're on the crosswalk, possibly not even seeing the light on the side of the road, but no part of your car is impeding the cross traffic. Well, even if the car in front now clears the intersection, if the light has turned red, you should almost certainly stop and wait for the next green light, rather than trying to clear the crosswalk: doing anything else is much more dangerous.
- np- 2y ago
  If your vehicle is ever fully stopped past the line, and the light is red, that would be considered a “blocking the box” traffic violation in most jurisdictions. You technically should not have entered the intersection at all without the ability to fully clear it.
  - bloak 2y ago
    In England, I thought it was only the "crossed out" intersections that you shouldn't enter unless the exit is clear. Rule 174 here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-159-to-203 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-...
addicted 2y ago
Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article says that the street design causes drivers to speed up and makes the intersections unsafe. Instead of drivers always stopping, or at the very least slowing down, when approaching the intersection, the new street design leads to drivers speeding up when approaching the intersection. This is bad design for pedestrians irrespective of whether the driver jumps a light, the pedestrians cross when they shouldn’t be, or neither of them are doing anything wrong. It will increase the odds of collisions, injuries and possibly fatalities.
- nirvdrum 2y ago
  > Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article states “… and I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span.” I suppose “ripping through” can be left up to interpretation. However, in the video the author says “that person just ran a stop… a red light right in the middle of me filming.” Then the other he says: “I bet this guy runs the light. Yup, see, this person ran the light, too.” “Running” a red light is an illegal act. I think in both cases the cars should have slowed down and had plenty of time to stop before entering the intersection. But, evidently that’s legal in California, while the author indicates otherwise.
  - horsawlarway 2y ago
    I don't know if California has a different law, but at least in my state it is very much illegal to accelerate into a yellow light. Enforcement is basically non-existent, but it's absolutely "running the light" and "breaking the law" to accelerate into yellow lights.
    - xiphias2 2y ago
      I don't know USA, but in other parts of the world yellow and red are different colors. Just because 2 things are illegal they aren't the same, and it takes away all seriousness from the article for me.
oangemangut 2y ago
I don't see why a re-design like this wouldn't have included both pedestrian and car infrastructure improvements. Tighten all the turn radii, add bump-outs to each corner, and you could have a signalized intersection that is better than it was before for both.
getpost 2y ago
As a nearby Los Angeles resident, I can confirm that a significant percentage, say 30-40%, of drivers 1) don't stop at stop signs, and 2) routinely run red lights at intersections when few or no other vehicles are present. It's true that it's legal to enter an intersection when a light is yellow, but don't let this statement distract from the general traffic-lawlessness that prevails. Law enforcement is even less likely to follow the law (ignoring cases where lights and sirens are activated). I think the defacto rule that many drivers follow is, 'if the intersection appears clear, I don't have to stop.' (I'm not advocating this rule, just saying what I think the rule is.) Cell phones and screens in cars have made this rule especially problematic because drivers aren't paying close enough attention to the road to ascertain whether intersections are clear. This isn't a recent phenomenon in LA, but it seems to have increased during and since Covid. I'd love to find reliable data on traffic enforcement. The problem is cultural, but the apparent lack of enforcement seems to have expanded the population of scofflaw drivers.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  There is local traffic culture in a lot of places. LA residents in particular don't like stopping at stop signs. Boston drivers turn left immediately when the light turns green even if other cars going the opposite direction have right of way. Texas drivers speed like madmen on freeways. New York drivers change lanes with reckless abandon. Law enforcement officers in all these places never pull people over for this stuff.
AlfeG 2y ago
Its only me, who think that 12 seconds of green light is just too small window. That's why every car try its best to pass through.
_ea1k 2y ago
I had the same thought. I've been in places where the first one would supposedly get you a ticket, as you are intended to stop if safely able to do so. It looked like that might have been the case there, though it isn't clear at all. The second wasn't even close to running the light.

xutopia 2y ago

One car enters the intersection on red.

munchler 2y ago
That's false. The stop line for cars is out of frame in the video, and the driver has already passed it by the time the light turns red. You can get a better view of what the intersection actually looks like here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/L37hZyvXs8BeWmFE8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/L37hZyvXs8BeWmFE8
- DHPersonal 2y ago
  I think it depends on what one uses as the definition of intersection. Is it the actual point where the two roads collide, or is it at the stop line?
  - avgDev 2y ago
    You can't be serious. The stop line is where the intersection begins. If you cross the stop line on yellow you won't get a ticket and it is perfectly legal in most US states.

cosmotic 2y ago

Not only legal, but safer than slamming on one's breaks.

CalRobert 2y ago
Generally speaking if you're going the speed limit you don't need to "slam on your breaks (sic)" to stop before a light turns red unless you didn't have enough time to clear the intersection anyway.
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  Depends how far you are away from the light when it turns.
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    And, of course, your speed.
    - ajmurmann 2y ago
      Clearly both are a factor but you don't need both. Even if I go 20mph I have to slam on the breaks hard if the light turns when I'm just three ft away. The only way around this is to treat every light like a stop sign where you do a California roll Edit: As a related pet peeve I've never understood why we don't have countdowns for car traffic lights like we do for pedestrians. These IMO would not only increase safety but also fuel savings (especially if we had them for each signal change) as I could time my arrival at the traffic light to minimize braking and acceleration.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Surely it depends how close you are to the line when the light turns yellow.
- cosmotic 2y ago
  My partner slams on his breaks even though he goes below the speed limit and has plenty of time to clear the intersection. It's not just the speed.

kaonwarb 2y ago

Just rewatched and agree they both entered on orange, which is legal. This clear misinterpretation makes me question the author's take as a whole. Did they consider that cars also regularly run stop signs? Is it possible that this is, in fact, safer for pedestrians, albeit more frustrating while waiting?

jagged-chisel 2y ago
OT, but it fired me up a bit - people that enter the intersection on green or orange awaiting a break to turn left. And then don’t clear the intersection on red. Now they’re in everyone’s way. How do you get them to understand they’ve already “run the light” and just need to move?
- potato3732842 2y ago
  Would you rather they floor it and beat the straight through traffic when the light turns green? 1-2 cars entering the intersection and then getting through when traffic clears on the red is less worse than the alternative.
  - jagged-chisel 2y ago
    One of us has misunderstood the other. Maybe I’m misreading you. Let me clarify my position. If you’ve entered the intersection on green or orange, and must await oncoming traffic before you can safely turn left, then the light turns red before oncoming traffic clears, once that traffic has indeed stopped for the red, you need to complete your left turn to clear the intersection, even on red. This situation is clearly spelled out in the driving manuals for my state. If you are not willing to continue on if the light turns red while you are in the intersection, then don’t enter the intersection until it’s clear - wait behind the line.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      For the last sentence, do you mean continue on straight if the desired left turn is not available?

ColdTakes 2y ago

You can not say this without the caveat that it is location dependent. This is an illegal action in some cities and states. Like in California, where that video was taken, yellow means STOP if you can safely do so. Both of these cars had ample time to stop and chose to accelerate to make the light.

avgDev 2y ago
How can you tell both cars had ample time to stop? We didn't see how close they were to entering the intersection in the video. They entered the intersection on a yellow light, which is perfectly legal if they could not stop.

DHPersonal 2y ago

I disagree. The first car doesn't even cross their side of the pedestrian crossing before the red light blinks on, so they have had ample time to prepare to stop and are running a red light. The second car is more debatable but also had enough time to stop, as the light turns red while they are still in the middle of the intersection.

crackercrews 2y ago
The second car definitely entered on yellow. It doesn't matter if they could have stopped. They have the right to enter on yellow. The first car passed the first line when the light was yellow, but not the second line. The area in between is the crosswalk. I can't tell if "enter the intersection" means "enter any part of the area past the line where you're supposed to stop" or "enter the part past the crosswalk, where the roads actually intersect". Does anyone know what the rule is?
- prmoustache 2y ago
  The fact people can't figure what the rules are is a problem in itself vs a stop sign where everybody knows you should stop.
  - crackercrews 2y ago
    I know where to stop. I stop before the crosswalk What is less clear is what the word intersection means in a technical sense. Complicated or ambiguous rules are a part of life. If the idea is to get rid of anything that requires lots of rules, then we'd all still be on foot. No cars, no horses, no bikes. Would that be a net improvement?
- toast0 2y ago
  It's well spelled out in vehicle code 21453 (a) > A driver facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a marked limit line, but if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and shall remain stopped until an indication to proceed is shown, except as provided in subdivision (b). [subdivision b allows for turns on red] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21453 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

SoftTalker 2y ago

Yellow generally means do not enter the intersection unless you are so close that you cannot reasonably stop. It is not legal to enter the intersection if you cannot clear it before the signal turns red. Exact rules and enforcement vary by state.

cge 2y ago
> It is not legal to enter the intersection if you cannot clear it before the signal turns red. That does not appear to be the case in California, which this article is written about. It seems to be a bit confusing, because there are suggestions that the driver handbook suggests that you should follow the rule you note, but that the law itself has no such requirement. In practice, in many areas of coastal California almost no one would stop at a yellow unless they felt they could not enter the intersection before it turned red, and doing otherwise would likely be seen as impeding traffic by many other drivers.
jbritton 2y ago
In CA we have many intersections where one wants to turn left, but there is not a dedicated left turn signal. When the light turns green, you pull out into the intersection. Ideally you pull out enough that the car behind you can also get into the intersection. On busy roads you may not be able to complete the left turn until the signal goes red. If you chose not to pull out, then nobody would ever be able to turn left. I believe CA passed a law some 20 plus years ago that you must be able to clear the intersection before the red light, which is in conflict with what is sometimes necessary. There are situations though where the direction you are headed is backed up, such that if you pulled out you could end up stuck in the middle of the intersection long after the red light. I believe the law was intended for this situation. So don’t pull out if your direction of travel is blocked.

UseofWeapons1 2y ago

I had to look this up. In California in particular, this is true, which surprised me. Per a random law firm: California’s yellow light law permits drivers to enter an intersection during a yellow light. No violation exists unless any part of the car is over the stopping line when the light turns red. However, the law encourages drivers to slow down before reaching the intersection. Whereas in, for example, Massachusetts, this would be considered running a red light. https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:text=California's%20yellow%20light%20law%20permits,down%20before%20reaching%20the%20intersection https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:tex....

kurthr 2y ago
I'm wondering how you would know when the yellow light was going to come on. Do you have some sort of countdown, or innate knowledge? Because, otherwise do you just randomly stop at green lights guessing that a yellow light might come on? Or do you drive so slowly that you can stop in the width of the white line before a pedestrian crossing? Really, I'm trying to figure out how you don't ever enter just as a light turns yellow. Once you do, do you stop in the intersection or try to clear it before it turns red? I hope the latter. For me yellow lights are a warning that a red light is coming. It should be long enough for cars to clear the intersection (in many states without gridlock rules even this is not the case for left hand turns). My experience in Boston is that drivers try to beat the green light change and accelerate while it's still red.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  > For me yellow lights are a warning that a red light is coming Correct, yellow means "start slowing and stop before the intersection if you can do so safely, otherwise proceed". Red means "do not proceed if you aren't already in the intersection". This is why the opposing traffic signal and walk signal will wait for a second or two after red: to allow people who entered on yellow to finish their transit across the intersection. Indeed, in the author's own video where they incorrectly claim someone ran a red light, the author had no legal right to cross anyways, so there was no chance of the author getting injured unless they ran a red light at the crosswalk. In short, the author seems most frustrated that the situation changed from everyone waiting on him, to him waiting a few seconds for others.

runako 2y ago

The way I learned this was "in legal, out legal," meaning that you are not allowed to be driving in the intersection while the light is red (aka you have to be finished transiting by the time the light changes). Is this not the law in California?

avgDev 2y ago
I believe most states it is LEGAL to enter the intersection(normally marked by a white line) before the light turns red. Cross traffic MUST wait for cars to clear the intersection.
mrWiz 2y ago
In my state you are allowed to exit the intersection while the light is red but may only enter while it's green or yellow. In driver's ed they taught us to enter the intersection while waiting to make a left turn so that we could complete the turn after the light turned yellow/red and opposing traffic stopped.
- avgDev 2y ago
  It is the same in most US states.
toast0 2y ago
My understanding is that California has two relevant laws for this discussion: 21453 (a) which prohibits crossing the stop line when the light is red [1]. And 22526 (a) which prohibits entering an intersection when the exit isn't clear. [2] You have to be able to clear the intersection if you enter it, and you have to enter it on green or yellow (except for turn on red after a stop), but you don't have to clear the intersection before it goes red. Common practice (which might not be 100% legal) for unprotected lefts on green (where space permits) is for the first car to fully enter the intersection and the second car to roll over the line a bit, then for both vehicles to clear the intersection when opposing traffic stops which may be in yellow or red. The driver that's only a bit in the intersection can make a judgement call and stay slightly encroaching rather than clear the intersection if clearing seems inadvisable because opposing traffic was slow to stop. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=21453 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio.... [2] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&sectionNum=22526 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio....

hevang 2y ago

Legality aside, is that not kind of the issue here? Lights in a high foot traffic area could incentivize people to speed up to make it before the red, which is less predictable and has cars traveling at faster speeds compared to a stop sign, which requires all cars to stop. Embellished yes, but point of the article showing that this intersection is now more dangerous to pedestrians stands imo.

munchler 2y ago
Using stop lights to control this sort of high-traffic intersection is totally normal in the US. Stop signs are typically used for lower-traffic intersections. Subjectively speaking, I think drivers are more likely to obey a red light than a stop sign. Perhaps the author of this article is upset that the neighborhood now has more traffic than it used to, but that's a different issue.
- boredpeter 2y ago
  [dead]
- prmoustache 2y ago
  No, drivers in that neighborhood were used to stop at every stop while now a lot are passing through that intersection much faster to avoid the red light.
- hevang 2y ago
  I'm not sure I've seen evidence that running stop signs is more likely, but even if that is the case which one is higher risk? I'd subjectively say running red lights is more dangerous as you have a higher chance of several pedestrians entering the cross walk all at once, or several cars going at once, since it causes people/cars to move in waves. I think its pretty clear that the author is upset that a stop light that increases risk for pedestrians, cost the school and city money, and provides minimal time advantage for cars was implemented. Also, I'd like to point out that normal does not mean good, or best.

BugsJustFindMe 2y ago

Both may be legal, but the first one is unclear and is definitely unsafe. Safety requirements dictate a slightly different understanding of yellow light than is commonly used by drivers. For safety, yellow must mean "begin controlled deceleration immediately". The first driver had plenty of time on yellow to not be just barely entering the intersection on red. They clearly were not decelerating and had very likely sped up to beat the light. This unquestionably is a thing that drivers do all the time, and it's dangerous.

munchler 2y ago
Again, please be aware that the video does not show the entire intersection.
- BugsJustFindMe 2y ago
  It seems like you're stuck on whether someone broke a red light law, but this isn't an article about the legality of dangerous behaviors. It's an article about making intersections more dangerous. The first car isn't even through the crosswalk when the light turns red. Racing through a crosswalk to beat a light is the definition of dangerous driving.
Ajedi32 2y ago
Why is it dangerous? (Unless they're breaking the speed limit to make the light, obviously.) Just the risk that they might misjudge the timing and enter the intersection after the light turns red? But lights have a built in delay before turning green to account for that.
- cptskippy 2y ago
  Because vehicles are often already traveling at or above the speed limit. Just as the yellow light is intended as a "start slowing down" but is interpreted as "speed up to beat the light", the speed limit sign is intended as a "do not exceed this speed" but is interpreted as "you must be traveling this speed". If we assumed that most vehicles are traveling the speed limit or faster, which is the case in my experience, then accelerating further is like pouring gasoline on a fire.

runako 2y ago

Freeze frame: https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh https://imgur.com/a/ASSeakh > the stop lines are out of frame Is the car in the freeze frame in a legal position given the red light? It would appear not.

avgDev 2y ago
There is another line before. We don't really see the entire intersection.
- runako 2y ago
  Yes, you are correct. That's why I specifically did not address the car's entry into the intersection. Given the red light, is the car in a legal position in the freeze frame?
  - avgDev 2y ago
    Yes. I do not understand why this is so misunderstood in the comments. This picture is LEGAL in most US states as long as the car entered the intersection ON A GREEN OR YELLOW light.
    - runako 2y ago
      At least one California law firm disagrees, hence my question: https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:text=California's%20yellow%20light%20law%20permits,down%20before%20reaching%20the%20intersection https://www.wccbc.com/red-and-yellow-light-accidents/#:~:tex.... Some quick Googling shows that "it depends on where" appears to be the right answer. New Jersey appears to be a populated jurisdiction where this might not be legal.
      - avgDev 2y ago
        As I said MOST US states. I looked at the link and NO, they DO NOT DISAGREE. Read the language, drivers SPEEDING through a yellow light MAY be found negligent if they cause an injury to someone. "California’s yellow light law permits drivers to enter an intersection during a yellow light. No violation exists unless any part of the car is over the stopping line when the light turns red. However, the law encourages drivers to slow down before reaching the intersection. In California, the yellow light law provides that drivers are automatically “warned” by the light turning yellow that the traffic light is about to change to red. This means that a faulty driver cannot avoid responsibility for an accident simply by claiming that they didn’t see the yellow light. It doesn’t matter if they saw it or not. Drivers speeding through a yellow light may be found negligent for not slowing down if their driving caused an accident or injured others."

bloak 2y ago

I've sometimes wondered what the exact rule is with red lights. Presumably you're allowed to continue moving forwards if the front of your vehicle passed the stop line before the light turned red. But if you stopped with the stop line passing through your vehicle are you allowed to start moving forwards again while the light is red? (Whether that would be a sensible thing to do would depend on whether you're driving a long vehicle with just a tiny part of it behind the stop line, or a motorbike with just a tiny part of it in front of the stop line, but does the law distinguish those two cases?)

simiones 2y ago
I don't think the law is so specific, but I suspect the right interpretation would be that you should pass through the intersection if the car is in a position where it would block other traffic the moment the light turns red; in any other circumstance, you should stop if the light is red, even if you passed the location where you'd normally wait. For example, say you're entering the intersection on green/yellow, but the car in front suddenly stops while you're on the crosswalk, possibly not even seeing the light on the side of the road, but no part of your car is impeding the cross traffic. Well, even if the car in front now clears the intersection, if the light has turned red, you should almost certainly stop and wait for the next green light, rather than trying to clear the crosswalk: doing anything else is much more dangerous.
np- 2y ago
If your vehicle is ever fully stopped past the line, and the light is red, that would be considered a “blocking the box” traffic violation in most jurisdictions. You technically should not have entered the intersection at all without the ability to fully clear it.
- bloak 2y ago
  In England, I thought it was only the "crossed out" intersections that you shouldn't enter unless the exit is clear. Rule 174 here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-159-to-203 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/using-the-road-...

addicted 2y ago

Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article says that the street design causes drivers to speed up and makes the intersections unsafe. Instead of drivers always stopping, or at the very least slowing down, when approaching the intersection, the new street design leads to drivers speeding up when approaching the intersection. This is bad design for pedestrians irrespective of whether the driver jumps a light, the pedestrians cross when they shouldn’t be, or neither of them are doing anything wrong. It will increase the odds of collisions, injuries and possibly fatalities.

nirvdrum 2y ago
> Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article states “… and I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span.” I suppose “ripping through” can be left up to interpretation. However, in the video the author says “that person just ran a stop… a red light right in the middle of me filming.” Then the other he says: “I bet this guy runs the light. Yup, see, this person ran the light, too.” “Running” a red light is an illegal act. I think in both cases the cars should have slowed down and had plenty of time to stop before entering the intersection. But, evidently that’s legal in California, while the author indicates otherwise.
- horsawlarway 2y ago
  I don't know if California has a different law, but at least in my state it is very much illegal to accelerate into a yellow light. Enforcement is basically non-existent, but it's absolutely "running the light" and "breaking the law" to accelerate into yellow lights.
  - xiphias2 2y ago
    I don't know USA, but in other parts of the world yellow and red are different colors. Just because 2 things are illegal they aren't the same, and it takes away all seriousness from the article for me.

oangemangut 2y ago

I don't see why a re-design like this wouldn't have included both pedestrian and car infrastructure improvements. Tighten all the turn radii, add bump-outs to each corner, and you could have a signalized intersection that is better than it was before for both.

getpost 2y ago

As a nearby Los Angeles resident, I can confirm that a significant percentage, say 30-40%, of drivers 1) don't stop at stop signs, and 2) routinely run red lights at intersections when few or no other vehicles are present. It's true that it's legal to enter an intersection when a light is yellow, but don't let this statement distract from the general traffic-lawlessness that prevails. Law enforcement is even less likely to follow the law (ignoring cases where lights and sirens are activated). I think the defacto rule that many drivers follow is, 'if the intersection appears clear, I don't have to stop.' (I'm not advocating this rule, just saying what I think the rule is.) Cell phones and screens in cars have made this rule especially problematic because drivers aren't paying close enough attention to the road to ascertain whether intersections are clear. This isn't a recent phenomenon in LA, but it seems to have increased during and since Covid. I'd love to find reliable data on traffic enforcement. The problem is cultural, but the apparent lack of enforcement seems to have expanded the population of scofflaw drivers.

pclmulqdq 2y ago
There is local traffic culture in a lot of places. LA residents in particular don't like stopping at stop signs. Boston drivers turn left immediately when the light turns green even if other cars going the opposite direction have right of way. Texas drivers speed like madmen on freeways. New York drivers change lanes with reckless abandon. Law enforcement officers in all these places never pull people over for this stuff.

AlfeG 2y ago

Its only me, who think that 12 seconds of green light is just too small window. That's why every car try its best to pass through.

_ea1k 2y ago

I had the same thought. I've been in places where the first one would supposedly get you a ticket, as you are intended to stop if safely able to do so. It looked like that might have been the case there, though it isn't clear at all. The second wasn't even close to running the light.