3 ms·

Just a reminder that Unit 8200 is staffed mostly by conscripts who are serving out their mandatory military service and chose to accept an invitation to serve i

Just a reminder that Unit 8200 is staffed mostly by conscripts who are serving out their mandatory military service and chose to accept an invitation to serve in the cyberwarfare arm of the IDF instead of choosing to shoot guns. In other words, it's staffed by Israeli kids who made the choice most of us would have made under the circumstances. It seems a bit unfair to hold that against them more than 10 years later, no?

lmm 2y ago
> In other words, it's staffed by Israeli kids who made the choice most of us would have made under the circumstances. It seems a bit unfair to hold that against them more than 10 years later, no? You could say the same about the guy in a call center in India trying to pull a tech support scam on you over the phone. Yes, he's probably making the best choice he can for his own livelihood, probably the same thing you would do in his position. No, that doesn't mean you should trust him. Just as you have to treat all Chinese companies as under control of the PRC government and all Australian companies as compromised by their security services, you have to treat all Israeli citizens as under the control of the Israeli military. Any adult can be conscripted and they have a history of disguising military operations as civilian ones. Someone might tell you they left the Israeli military 10 years ago and they're probably telling the truth, but if you make a habit of believing that statement you're going to get burned.
- lolinder 2y ago
  > You could say the same about the guy in a call center in India trying to pull a tech support scam on you over the phone. Yes, he's probably making the best choice he can for his own livelihood, probably the same thing you would do in his position. No, that doesn't mean you should trust him. No, you can't, because the scammer in the call center is choosing that over thousands of other options. Are they choosing to maximize their pay? Maybe. But for every scammer there are thousands of Indians who show a different option. Choosing to dodge or resist the draft is totally different—very few people do it, and those who do get prison terms. If you sincerely believe that you'd have chosen to go to prison rather than be drafted, more power to you, but I and most others would aim to minimize the likelihood of ourselves dying and minimize the number of people I'd have to kill. For me that would have meant signing up for cyberwarfare, which in Israel would have meant Unit 8200. The rest of your comment is totally irrational fear-based speculation. Anti-Israel sentiment may not be antisemitic, but it sure shares the same tendency towards irrational fear and aggression.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > the scammer in the call center is choosing that over thousands of other options. No, they're the people who don't have other options (because they lack the skills and/or qualifications and/or are discriminated against). It's not malice, it's just desperation to get money to live on (or, often, to provide for people who depend on them). But of course the end result is the same. > The rest of your comment is totally irrational fear-based speculation. Entirely rational given the historical pattern of behaviour shown by the Israeli military, and the fact that they have no reason to change (quite the opposite).
- weatherlite 2y ago
  > Just as you have to treat all Chinese companies as under control of the PRC government and all Australian companies as compromised by their security services, you have to treat all Israeli citizens as under the control of the Israeli military Got it , and are now all American companies suspect because they are managed behind the scenes by Musk and Trump?
  - bbqfog 2y ago
    I feel the same way about companies with CIA founders.
  - lmm 2y ago
    All American companies are suspect given the National Security Letter system yes. (Also South Korea and Kazakhstan, and obviously also any country where the "rule of law" is low enough that governments can do as they wish without formal legal powers)
bbqfog 2y ago
I would under no circumstance join the IDF or even live in Israel. They’re not “kids”, they are military personnel.
- arccy 2y ago
  key word: "conscript" if you're born there, you have little choice in the matter.
  - bbqfog 2y ago
    I've never met an Israeli who wasn't a dual citizen. It's a choice to stay in Israel and fight in the IDF. In fact, the Snyk founder lives in London now: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/guypo https://uk.linkedin.com/in/guypo
    - lolinder 2y ago
      > I've never met an Israeli who wasn't a dual citizen. Given that unless you are in Israel you're most likely to be meeting Israeli expats or at the very least people who travel, that's hardly surprising and not great evidence for anything. > In fact, the Snyk founder lives in London now So you're acknowledging that you're going to hold their country of origin against them even after they've moved. Got it.
      - bbqfog 2y ago
        I don’t understand your complaint. People are free to vocally denounce Zionism. These founders have not done that. Quite the opposite, Snyk has offices in Israel and has been vocal about their ties to the IDF. It’s absolutely within my agency to not use their products. Again, there’s zero downside to do that.
        lolinder 2y ago
        Correct, you're welcome to do that, and I'm welcome to denounce you for advocating boycotting a product because of the country of origin of its founders. People can't help where they're born, and you're wrong to hold that against them. You're welcome to work through that cognitive dissonance however you like, but in the meantime I will continue to advocate for treating individuals as individuals.

lmm 2y ago

> In other words, it's staffed by Israeli kids who made the choice most of us would have made under the circumstances. It seems a bit unfair to hold that against them more than 10 years later, no? You could say the same about the guy in a call center in India trying to pull a tech support scam on you over the phone. Yes, he's probably making the best choice he can for his own livelihood, probably the same thing you would do in his position. No, that doesn't mean you should trust him. Just as you have to treat all Chinese companies as under control of the PRC government and all Australian companies as compromised by their security services, you have to treat all Israeli citizens as under the control of the Israeli military. Any adult can be conscripted and they have a history of disguising military operations as civilian ones. Someone might tell you they left the Israeli military 10 years ago and they're probably telling the truth, but if you make a habit of believing that statement you're going to get burned.

lolinder 2y ago
> You could say the same about the guy in a call center in India trying to pull a tech support scam on you over the phone. Yes, he's probably making the best choice he can for his own livelihood, probably the same thing you would do in his position. No, that doesn't mean you should trust him. No, you can't, because the scammer in the call center is choosing that over thousands of other options. Are they choosing to maximize their pay? Maybe. But for every scammer there are thousands of Indians who show a different option. Choosing to dodge or resist the draft is totally different—very few people do it, and those who do get prison terms. If you sincerely believe that you'd have chosen to go to prison rather than be drafted, more power to you, but I and most others would aim to minimize the likelihood of ourselves dying and minimize the number of people I'd have to kill. For me that would have meant signing up for cyberwarfare, which in Israel would have meant Unit 8200. The rest of your comment is totally irrational fear-based speculation. Anti-Israel sentiment may not be antisemitic, but it sure shares the same tendency towards irrational fear and aggression.
- lmm 2y ago
  > the scammer in the call center is choosing that over thousands of other options. No, they're the people who don't have other options (because they lack the skills and/or qualifications and/or are discriminated against). It's not malice, it's just desperation to get money to live on (or, often, to provide for people who depend on them). But of course the end result is the same. > The rest of your comment is totally irrational fear-based speculation. Entirely rational given the historical pattern of behaviour shown by the Israeli military, and the fact that they have no reason to change (quite the opposite).
weatherlite 2y ago
> Just as you have to treat all Chinese companies as under control of the PRC government and all Australian companies as compromised by their security services, you have to treat all Israeli citizens as under the control of the Israeli military Got it , and are now all American companies suspect because they are managed behind the scenes by Musk and Trump?
- bbqfog 2y ago
  I feel the same way about companies with CIA founders.
- lmm 2y ago
  All American companies are suspect given the National Security Letter system yes. (Also South Korea and Kazakhstan, and obviously also any country where the "rule of law" is low enough that governments can do as they wish without formal legal powers)

bbqfog 2y ago

I would under no circumstance join the IDF or even live in Israel. They’re not “kids”, they are military personnel.

arccy 2y ago
key word: "conscript" if you're born there, you have little choice in the matter.
- bbqfog 2y ago
  I've never met an Israeli who wasn't a dual citizen. It's a choice to stay in Israel and fight in the IDF. In fact, the Snyk founder lives in London now: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/guypo https://uk.linkedin.com/in/guypo
  - lolinder 2y ago
    > I've never met an Israeli who wasn't a dual citizen. Given that unless you are in Israel you're most likely to be meeting Israeli expats or at the very least people who travel, that's hardly surprising and not great evidence for anything. > In fact, the Snyk founder lives in London now So you're acknowledging that you're going to hold their country of origin against them even after they've moved. Got it.
    - bbqfog 2y ago
      I don’t understand your complaint. People are free to vocally denounce Zionism. These founders have not done that. Quite the opposite, Snyk has offices in Israel and has been vocal about their ties to the IDF. It’s absolutely within my agency to not use their products. Again, there’s zero downside to do that.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        Correct, you're welcome to do that, and I'm welcome to denounce you for advocating boycotting a product because of the country of origin of its founders. People can't help where they're born, and you're wrong to hold that against them. You're welcome to work through that cognitive dissonance however you like, but in the meantime I will continue to advocate for treating individuals as individuals.