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Article is paywalled but I think inverting the question is fun. Why don’t small kids in other western countries ride the subway alone?

ranger_danger 2y ago
Surely one of the big reasons is a much higher risk of crime/abuse/kidnapping in western countries? There was recently a story in the US about how a parent was arrested for letting their 11-year-old son walk down the street to a store by themselves. https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-range-parenting-back/story?id=116004039 https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-rang...
- reaperducer 2y ago
  Much higher fear. Not necessarily much higher risk.
  - HKH2 2y ago
    Do you think you live in a high-trust society?
bruce511 2y ago
I live in a city without a subway. But as a child (approximately 8 I think) I would ride the bus into the city from the suburbs for swim training. We lived on a mountain, the first time I walked to the top I was 6. My fellow hikers were 6 and 7. To describe it as a different time is massive understatement. My own kids were teenagers before they walked to the corner store without an adult. There is a perception that suburb living is more dangerous now. But I think perhaps the real issue us that as parents we were much more involved with the kids, which in turn made them less self-reliant. I would not gave dreamed of letting my young kids loose on the bus system, and I suspect they didn't have the upbringing to handle it. My parents trusted us enough to "figure out our way home". And we did. (Notably well before phones obviously.) I'm not sure I was confident enough that my own kids would do likewise .
- vel0city 2y ago
  > My own kids were teenagers before they walked to the corner store without an adult. > Im not sure I was confident enough that my own kids would do likewise. > But I think perhaps the real issue us that as parents we were much more involved with the kids, which in turn made them less self-reliant. Sorry for taking your quotes a bit out of order. But I'm trying to put together an idea of how to raise my own kids, which are still under 5. I am absolutely trying to be a part of their life, but at the same time try and encourage self reliance in certain ways. Despite having a car to drive them everywhere, I try and make a lot of trips on public transit/walking/biking. I point out how to know what bus we're on. I point out how the train platforms work. I try and show them how to interact with the world. Do you think if you would have done things differently it would have led to the same outcome? Not critiquing your own parenting style or whatever. Just trying to see if this is just something I should end up expecting or if it's something I might be able to do something differently. Personally I'd love it if they managed to get to the library and home on their own at 13 by public transit. And to a certain extent I don't think that's a big expectation; it's a single bus transfer from a stop right outside our front door.
  - cycomanic 2y ago
    > Personally I'd love it if they managed to get to the library and home on their own at 13 by public transit. And to a certain extent I don't think that's a big expectation; it's a single bus transfer from a stop right outside our front door. That's a ridiculously low expectation. My older daughter took the bus alone to school by herself when she was 7 (and was immensely proud) and took her little sister with her by age 9. We live in a country with much worse public transport now, but she is walking back to and from the swimming pool (Abt 2km though the city). I believe giving them independence and trusting them early is the key to success. It's actually much easier now then back when we grew up, she just got a kids smart watch (her request) so she can call if there is something wrong, we never had anything like that (if we were lucky there was a public payphone)
    - vel0city 2y ago
      One thing to clarify: are you talking a city bus or a school bus? I wouldn't worry about even a five year old riding a school bus alone. They're on a bus with one final safe destination or a known regular stop coming home, the bus driver is expected to watch out for the kids, and all riders of the bus are peers. This is far different from a city bus where I wouldn't expect the same from a regular driver, the children aren't going to be taking nearly as regular ridership of the route, and the people on the bus are likely to not be other children trying to get to school and home. But then again it really showcases a difference in mindset from riding transit and kids self sufficiency in the US versus overseas. Many people think I'm crazy for riding public transit with kids today and think I'm a complete nut for hoping they'll figure it out by thirteen. Meanwhile others can't imagine waiting to thirteen to trust them on transit.
dr_kiszonka 2y ago
One reason is the fear of someone reporting you, the parent, to social services for neglect.
- ty6853 2y ago
  This is it. I live in the desert country where there are rattlesnakes, illegal smuggling gangs, crazy drivers -- much more dangerous than modern NYC -- but even young children are seen riding dirt bikes or quads all around because there are no government services here to snitch to, so the children can enjoy their lives without some smug social services leach deciding it for them.

ranger_danger 2y ago

Surely one of the big reasons is a much higher risk of crime/abuse/kidnapping in western countries? There was recently a story in the US about how a parent was arrested for letting their 11-year-old son walk down the street to a store by themselves. https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-range-parenting-back/story?id=116004039 https://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-moms-arrest-puts-free-rang...

reaperducer 2y ago
Much higher fear. Not necessarily much higher risk.
- HKH2 2y ago
  Do you think you live in a high-trust society?

bruce511 2y ago

I live in a city without a subway. But as a child (approximately 8 I think) I would ride the bus into the city from the suburbs for swim training. We lived on a mountain, the first time I walked to the top I was 6. My fellow hikers were 6 and 7. To describe it as a different time is massive understatement. My own kids were teenagers before they walked to the corner store without an adult. There is a perception that suburb living is more dangerous now. But I think perhaps the real issue us that as parents we were much more involved with the kids, which in turn made them less self-reliant. I would not gave dreamed of letting my young kids loose on the bus system, and I suspect they didn't have the upbringing to handle it. My parents trusted us enough to "figure out our way home". And we did. (Notably well before phones obviously.) I'm not sure I was confident enough that my own kids would do likewise .

vel0city 2y ago
> My own kids were teenagers before they walked to the corner store without an adult. > Im not sure I was confident enough that my own kids would do likewise. > But I think perhaps the real issue us that as parents we were much more involved with the kids, which in turn made them less self-reliant. Sorry for taking your quotes a bit out of order. But I'm trying to put together an idea of how to raise my own kids, which are still under 5. I am absolutely trying to be a part of their life, but at the same time try and encourage self reliance in certain ways. Despite having a car to drive them everywhere, I try and make a lot of trips on public transit/walking/biking. I point out how to know what bus we're on. I point out how the train platforms work. I try and show them how to interact with the world. Do you think if you would have done things differently it would have led to the same outcome? Not critiquing your own parenting style or whatever. Just trying to see if this is just something I should end up expecting or if it's something I might be able to do something differently. Personally I'd love it if they managed to get to the library and home on their own at 13 by public transit. And to a certain extent I don't think that's a big expectation; it's a single bus transfer from a stop right outside our front door.
- cycomanic 2y ago
  > Personally I'd love it if they managed to get to the library and home on their own at 13 by public transit. And to a certain extent I don't think that's a big expectation; it's a single bus transfer from a stop right outside our front door. That's a ridiculously low expectation. My older daughter took the bus alone to school by herself when she was 7 (and was immensely proud) and took her little sister with her by age 9. We live in a country with much worse public transport now, but she is walking back to and from the swimming pool (Abt 2km though the city). I believe giving them independence and trusting them early is the key to success. It's actually much easier now then back when we grew up, she just got a kids smart watch (her request) so she can call if there is something wrong, we never had anything like that (if we were lucky there was a public payphone)
  - vel0city 2y ago
    One thing to clarify: are you talking a city bus or a school bus? I wouldn't worry about even a five year old riding a school bus alone. They're on a bus with one final safe destination or a known regular stop coming home, the bus driver is expected to watch out for the kids, and all riders of the bus are peers. This is far different from a city bus where I wouldn't expect the same from a regular driver, the children aren't going to be taking nearly as regular ridership of the route, and the people on the bus are likely to not be other children trying to get to school and home. But then again it really showcases a difference in mindset from riding transit and kids self sufficiency in the US versus overseas. Many people think I'm crazy for riding public transit with kids today and think I'm a complete nut for hoping they'll figure it out by thirteen. Meanwhile others can't imagine waiting to thirteen to trust them on transit.

dr_kiszonka 2y ago

One reason is the fear of someone reporting you, the parent, to social services for neglect.

ty6853 2y ago
This is it. I live in the desert country where there are rattlesnakes, illegal smuggling gangs, crazy drivers -- much more dangerous than modern NYC -- but even young children are seen riding dirt bikes or quads all around because there are no government services here to snitch to, so the children can enjoy their lives without some smug social services leach deciding it for them.