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> gained racist connotations This passive phrasing implies a kind of universal consensus or collective decision-making process that the word has officially cha

> gained racist connotations This passive phrasing implies a kind of universal consensus or collective decision-making process that the word has officially changed connotation. If this were the case, it would not be such a problem. What happens in practice is that a small minority of people decide that a certain word has bad connotations. These people decide that it no longer matters what the previous connotation was, nor the speaker's intention in uttering it, it is now off-limits and subject to correction when used. People pressure others to conform, in varying degrees of politeness -- anything from a well-intentioned and friendly FYI to a public and aggressive dressing down -- and therefore the stigma surrounding the word spreads. It's hard to believe that this terminology treadmill genuinely helps anyone, as people are perfectly capable of divining intent when they really want to (nobody is accusing the NAACP of favoring discrimination and segregation). Add to this that the favored terms of the treadmill creators don't necessarily even reflect what the groups in question actually want. Indigenous Americans generally prefer being called Indian, not Native American (CGP Grey made a whole video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh88fVP2FWQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh88fVP2FWQ). So that momentary pause you feel when you almost say "Indian" and then correct it to "Native American", who is that actually serving? It's not the people in question. It's a different set of people, a set of people who have gained the cultural power to stigmatize words based on their own personal beliefs.

zahlman 2y ago
>So that momentary pause you feel when you almost say "Indian" and then correct it to "Native American" Here in Canada it's "Indigenous peoples", sorry, I mean "First Nations", unless they've come up with something else now. Never mind that the people in question don't necessarily feel any kind of solidarity with other indigenous groups beyond their own. (Also, "missing and murdered indigenous women (and children)" is a set phrase, and people will yell at you if you point out the statistics showing that something like 70% of missing and murdered indigenous people in Canada are men.)
- nayuki 2y ago
  When I went to school in Canada, the term I received in year 2000 was "aboriginals". The terminology has indeed been changing.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
This is one of the things that most fascinates me about the anti-woke. You're advocating for people to be described in whatever term they prefer and not have a term imposed upon them from outside. That alien visiting for mars would think "Oh, this is this wokeness I have heard of, respecting groups desires to be addressed in their preferred way". But no, you're only bringing this up because you believe the people you think are "woke" are imposing a name on these groups from the outside. Is it a principle or is it a pointless gotcha? I would argue this is aggressively performative anti-wokeness!
- miningape 2y ago
  There's a difference between respect and compel. And it's not a fine line neither. Most people are fine with respecting people's pronouns, especially when it is someone they already respect. The issue comes when you are compelled by your company/social circle/etc. to put your own pronouns in your bio (signalling fake political allegiance), being fired for accidentally misgendering a (badly passing) trans-woman, and so on.
  - skulk 2y ago
    It doesn't help your point at all that your two examples are things that don't actually happen outside the imagination of reactionaries.
    - bpt3 2y ago
      Have you ever worked at a large organization that markets themselves as progressive? If you have and don't have any experience with being pressured or outright told to comply with performative measures like email signature changes, your experience would appear to be an anomaly. And whether you agree with it or not, there are numerous documented cases online where people were fired for misgendering someone.
      - squigz 2y ago
        > And whether you agree with it or not, there are numerous documented cases online where people were fired for misgendering someone. Easy enough to link some then, I take it?
miek 2y ago
The battle over the term "tranny" in the 2010s was very eye opening. Some celebrities were being skewered for using the term, though they and a huge % of LGBT folks saw it in a positive light. https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2014/05/rupaul_s-_tranny-debate--the-limits-and-power-of-language https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2014/05/rupaul_s-_tran...
undersuit 2y ago
>Indigenous Americans generally prefer being called Indian, not Native American Enforcing this false dilemma is what leads us to this situation. Even this CCP Grey guy is arguing for the false dilemma. Actually referring to Native Americans or Indians as a monolithic group is the problem. The many peoples forced to live in the Indian Territories(Oklahoma) have different needs than the peoples forced to live along the US-Canadian border(like Ojibway, Blackfoot, and Mohawk) and different needs than the Apache... another overloaded name[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache#Difficulties_in_naming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache#Difficulties_in_naming

zahlman 2y ago

>So that momentary pause you feel when you almost say "Indian" and then correct it to "Native American" Here in Canada it's "Indigenous peoples", sorry, I mean "First Nations", unless they've come up with something else now. Never mind that the people in question don't necessarily feel any kind of solidarity with other indigenous groups beyond their own. (Also, "missing and murdered indigenous women (and children)" is a set phrase, and people will yell at you if you point out the statistics showing that something like 70% of missing and murdered indigenous people in Canada are men.)

nayuki 2y ago
When I went to school in Canada, the term I received in year 2000 was "aboriginals". The terminology has indeed been changing.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

This is one of the things that most fascinates me about the anti-woke. You're advocating for people to be described in whatever term they prefer and not have a term imposed upon them from outside. That alien visiting for mars would think "Oh, this is this wokeness I have heard of, respecting groups desires to be addressed in their preferred way". But no, you're only bringing this up because you believe the people you think are "woke" are imposing a name on these groups from the outside. Is it a principle or is it a pointless gotcha? I would argue this is aggressively performative anti-wokeness!

miningape 2y ago
There's a difference between respect and compel. And it's not a fine line neither. Most people are fine with respecting people's pronouns, especially when it is someone they already respect. The issue comes when you are compelled by your company/social circle/etc. to put your own pronouns in your bio (signalling fake political allegiance), being fired for accidentally misgendering a (badly passing) trans-woman, and so on.
- skulk 2y ago
  It doesn't help your point at all that your two examples are things that don't actually happen outside the imagination of reactionaries.
  - bpt3 2y ago
    Have you ever worked at a large organization that markets themselves as progressive? If you have and don't have any experience with being pressured or outright told to comply with performative measures like email signature changes, your experience would appear to be an anomaly. And whether you agree with it or not, there are numerous documented cases online where people were fired for misgendering someone.
    - squigz 2y ago
      > And whether you agree with it or not, there are numerous documented cases online where people were fired for misgendering someone. Easy enough to link some then, I take it?

miek 2y ago

The battle over the term "tranny" in the 2010s was very eye opening. Some celebrities were being skewered for using the term, though they and a huge % of LGBT folks saw it in a positive light. https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2014/05/rupaul_s-_tranny-debate--the-limits-and-power-of-language https://www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2014/05/rupaul_s-_tran...

undersuit 2y ago

>Indigenous Americans generally prefer being called Indian, not Native American Enforcing this false dilemma is what leads us to this situation. Even this CCP Grey guy is arguing for the false dilemma. Actually referring to Native Americans or Indians as a monolithic group is the problem. The many peoples forced to live in the Indian Territories(Oklahoma) have different needs than the peoples forced to live along the US-Canadian border(like Ojibway, Blackfoot, and Mohawk) and different needs than the Apache... another overloaded name[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache#Difficulties_in_naming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache#Difficulties_in_naming