5 ms·

RIP S3 sleep... Took years to get it to work reliably under Linux, then we had a good decade+ run of it "just working" like this, now back to trying to weed out

by ohazi 2y ago

RIP S3 sleep... Took years to get it to work reliably under Linux, then we had a good decade+ run of it "just working" like this, now back to trying to weed out all the wacky platform quirks and weird hardware/firmware behavior that make the S0ix states be just barely unusable. Maybe in another five years...

starspangled 2y ago
Can you explain a bit more? What happened? Linux used to be able to do S3 sleep well, and now it can't because... new platforms removed S3 for S0ix? Or S3 became even more complicated with mroe platform quirks and weird hardware?
- jodoherty 2y ago
  The problem is platforms moved away from S3 sleep. I've heard people claim it was mostly so managed Windows laptops could force updates with the lid shut and the laptop suspended. Now I have to worry about my laptop randomly overheating itself in my backpack and even catching fire.
  - 4ad 2y ago
    My Macbook Pro lasts about two days on battery while doing work (in clamshell mode, with the screen off). My Thinkpad drains its battery in less time than that in sleep. The removal of S3 is a travesty.
  - pxeboot 2y ago
    I believe it came about during the "Windows must run on tablets" era. They needed a way for WiFi to stay on during sleep so things like notifications would continue to work. It also enabled media players to continue playing audio in sleep mode, similar to iOS and Android.
    - dbtc 2y ago
      Would be great to have a bios switch for it then.
      - treffer 2y ago
        I tried a few times as some BIOS have a hidden or disabled setting but I never got past a plain crash. Device and CPU vendor support for classic S3 is shrinking. E.g. on framework laptops the Intel CPU(!) does not officially support S3 sleep. So I can understand that there is no option for it if all you can get is out of spec behavior and crashes. Also note that it is incompatible with some secure boot and system integrity settings.
      - gertop 2y ago
        Thinkpads do. It's poorly named but they let you choose Windows (S0x) or Linux (S3) sleep.
        4ad 2y ago
        No, not on modern Thinkpads.
      - 0x457 2y ago
        Every XPS and Thinkpad that I owned, had a bios setting to "enable linux compatibility" which was enabling S3 state.
    - vladvasiliu 2y ago
      > It also enabled media players to continue playing audio in sleep mode Is that actually a thing? On my Windows machine media stops playing when I put it to sleep. The machine is clearly not completely off, though, judging by the fan spinning like crazy from time to time. Also, the whole "keep checking for e-mails" and whatever is clearly broken, since after waking up Outlook needs a while to come back to life and show new messages.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    I've heard people claim it was mostly so managed Windows laptops could force updates with the lid shut and the laptop suspended. That, but probably also to compete with Mac's Power Nap feature (2012) that updates Mail, Messages, and other applications during sleep (so that when you open up the laptop messaging apps are immediately up to date): https://www.engadget.com/2012-06-11-apple-introduces-power-nap-updates-your-mac-while-its-sleeping.html https://www.engadget.com/2012-06-11-apple-introduces-power-n... Apple managed to do it without setting your laptop on fire. Meanwhile Dell recommends you to switch off a laptop when you put it in your backpack: https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000124304/notebook-best-practices-for-care-and-use#:~:text=CAUTION%3A%20Dell%20Technologies%20recommends%20powering%20off%20the%20laptop%20completely%20before,drives%20or%20the%20AC%20adapter https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000124304/notebook-....
    - actionfromafar 2y ago
      Perfect "we have PowerNap at home" moment for Dell and friends. Well played, Apple.
    - 0x457 2y ago
      Hold on, Apple used the same intel chips as everyone else when Power Nap was introduced. In fact, it was implemented via S0ix state. It's just almost no one except Apple figured how to utilize it correctly. Now i'm wondering if it's Apple fault that S3 got removed.
    - goosedragons 2y ago
      Nah. Apple's Intel implementation at least was equally crap. I've had my 2018 MBP cook itself in my bag a couple times.
  - sim7c00 2y ago
    weirds me out since acpi etc. is uaed to control power qnd such states why would devices even need to do such things to support some OS.. the OS should be able to manage states, its the controller and hw should listen... in this case, windows could simply not put the devices to sleep? i know it didnt end up with this logic but it melts my brain as to why... is it cheaper to implement the hw without support for deep sleep? most specifications have it included (pcie, nvme, ahci etc. etc.) so you'd expect most devices working via pc platform would implement these things :( cant wait to push my OS onto real hardware and burn my fucking house down

by ohazi 2y ago

starspangled 2y ago

Can you explain a bit more? What happened? Linux used to be able to do S3 sleep well, and now it can't because... new platforms removed S3 for S0ix? Or S3 became even more complicated with mroe platform quirks and weird hardware?

jodoherty 2y ago
The problem is platforms moved away from S3 sleep. I've heard people claim it was mostly so managed Windows laptops could force updates with the lid shut and the laptop suspended. Now I have to worry about my laptop randomly overheating itself in my backpack and even catching fire.
- 4ad 2y ago
  My Macbook Pro lasts about two days on battery while doing work (in clamshell mode, with the screen off). My Thinkpad drains its battery in less time than that in sleep. The removal of S3 is a travesty.
- pxeboot 2y ago
  I believe it came about during the "Windows must run on tablets" era. They needed a way for WiFi to stay on during sleep so things like notifications would continue to work. It also enabled media players to continue playing audio in sleep mode, similar to iOS and Android.
  - dbtc 2y ago
    Would be great to have a bios switch for it then.
    - treffer 2y ago
      I tried a few times as some BIOS have a hidden or disabled setting but I never got past a plain crash. Device and CPU vendor support for classic S3 is shrinking. E.g. on framework laptops the Intel CPU(!) does not officially support S3 sleep. So I can understand that there is no option for it if all you can get is out of spec behavior and crashes. Also note that it is incompatible with some secure boot and system integrity settings.
    - gertop 2y ago
      Thinkpads do. It's poorly named but they let you choose Windows (S0x) or Linux (S3) sleep.
      - 4ad 2y ago
        No, not on modern Thinkpads.
    - 0x457 2y ago
      Every XPS and Thinkpad that I owned, had a bios setting to "enable linux compatibility" which was enabling S3 state.
  - vladvasiliu 2y ago
    > It also enabled media players to continue playing audio in sleep mode Is that actually a thing? On my Windows machine media stops playing when I put it to sleep. The machine is clearly not completely off, though, judging by the fan spinning like crazy from time to time. Also, the whole "keep checking for e-mails" and whatever is clearly broken, since after waking up Outlook needs a while to come back to life and show new messages.
- microtonal 2y ago
  I've heard people claim it was mostly so managed Windows laptops could force updates with the lid shut and the laptop suspended. That, but probably also to compete with Mac's Power Nap feature (2012) that updates Mail, Messages, and other applications during sleep (so that when you open up the laptop messaging apps are immediately up to date): https://www.engadget.com/2012-06-11-apple-introduces-power-nap-updates-your-mac-while-its-sleeping.html https://www.engadget.com/2012-06-11-apple-introduces-power-n... Apple managed to do it without setting your laptop on fire. Meanwhile Dell recommends you to switch off a laptop when you put it in your backpack: https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000124304/notebook-best-practices-for-care-and-use#:~:text=CAUTION%3A%20Dell%20Technologies%20recommends%20powering%20off%20the%20laptop%20completely%20before,drives%20or%20the%20AC%20adapter https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000124304/notebook-....
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    Perfect "we have PowerNap at home" moment for Dell and friends. Well played, Apple.
  - 0x457 2y ago
    Hold on, Apple used the same intel chips as everyone else when Power Nap was introduced. In fact, it was implemented via S0ix state. It's just almost no one except Apple figured how to utilize it correctly. Now i'm wondering if it's Apple fault that S3 got removed.
  - goosedragons 2y ago
    Nah. Apple's Intel implementation at least was equally crap. I've had my 2018 MBP cook itself in my bag a couple times.
- sim7c00 2y ago
  weirds me out since acpi etc. is uaed to control power qnd such states why would devices even need to do such things to support some OS.. the OS should be able to manage states, its the controller and hw should listen... in this case, windows could simply not put the devices to sleep? i know it didnt end up with this logic but it melts my brain as to why... is it cheaper to implement the hw without support for deep sleep? most specifications have it included (pcie, nvme, ahci etc. etc.) so you'd expect most devices working via pc platform would implement these things :( cant wait to push my OS onto real hardware and burn my fucking house down