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I think you're a bit confused, Android doesn't do a very good job of making web apps 1st class citizens at all. Even though I don't use it, iOS does the best j

I think you're a bit confused, Android doesn't do a very good job of making web apps 1st class citizens at all. Even though I don't use it, iOS does the best job there. When you create a desktop shortcut for an app, it will get an icon that looks just like all other apps' icons, it will launch into a full-screen chromeless browser that you wouldn't know was a browser at all (with a loading image, even). You can also control web apps that play HTML5 audio with the built in music controls from the multitasking pane. Android has none of those things. I've had hit or miss experience of it even picking a decent resolution icon, and Chrome uses the favicon with an envelope behind it, so it sticks out as a second class citizen (chrome also doesn't go chromeless).

tysonjennings 14y ago
I think you might be missing the point. Android does a great job of integrating data from the cloud with the operating system. An example is the Google Music player streams your music from the cloud and integrates the player controls with Android on the lockscreen, in the widget, in the status bar etc. The demo video from Canonical shows this kind of integration with last.fm. Nobody is saying Android or Ubuntu is perfect or whatever but there are similarities to what Android does and what Canonical is doing here.
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  The point of this (Ubuntu feature) is not that it's integrating proprietary Ubuntu services with the OS (it has already done that, with Ubuntu One), like your example of Google Music, the point is that it is promoting web applications to first-class citizens alongside the native apps. Android fails at this pretty badly.
  - tysonjennings 14y ago
    "web applications to first-class citizens alongside the native apps. Android fails at this pretty badly" Android isn't "failing" at something that it isn't trying to do. Web apps generally suffer from low performance when trying to do anything moderately complex on a mobile device. If you must use web technology to create apps on Android, there is webView in the sdk for you. Many web apps that have tons of users like Google Maps, Pandora, etc. have native apps that are actually performant, follow UI conventions, and have access to all the APIs.
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      You're missing what's right in front of you; the fact that web apps suffer from bad performance on Android is a prime example of how it is failing. Perhaps Google doesn't care about web apps, but that would be a huge turnaround from just a few years ago when it was one of the web's biggest proponents.
      - tysonjennings 14y ago
        I have an iPad and web apps suck on it too. What is your benchmark for good performance? I'm being serious as I'd love to be able to have a legitimate mobile outlet for high performance web applications.
        MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        I think the best example of this is Windows 8, which has 2 application environments, .NET and Trident (The IE10 rendering engine). They are, for all intents and purposes, on equal footing with each other, and an end user can't tell which environment an application uses.
        flatline3 14y ago
        In that case, it's no longer standard or portable HTML/JS, no?
        MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        The engine that powers it is exactly the same, the difference is additional APIs (that add functionality, not performance). Everyone already agrees that HTML/JS needs more APIs.
      - flatline3 14y ago
        It's the prime example of how JS and HTML is a failed model for efficient application implementation. It is not an example of Android's failing.
stinkytaco 14y ago
I don't just want to be able to open webapps on my phone with a shortcut, I want real integration. I'm sometimes not connected to the Internet so I like to have my data offline, but I like to be able to get it online quickly. Android does this very well. Share intents, music player integration, it's just a very slick offline to online seamless system.
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  Rewatch the video, it's more than just a shortcut.
  - stinkytaco 14y ago
    Yeah, I'm referring more iOS. I think the idea of "webapps as a first class citizen" is a bit of a red herring. Web apps will never be first class citizens (especially not on a phone) because they fail simple performance tests. I think what OSs ought to aim for is what Android does, a smooth integration of offline and online modes. Ubuntu does this somewhat, iOS not really at all (though it is successful in the way you speak of), but I feel there's a combination of the way Adnroid, iOS and Ubuntu are doing this that could hit a sweet spot.
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      I think you're being short-sighted. There's nothing inheritantly different about mobile that prevents web apps running as well as they do on the desktop. You are aware that on the desktop JavaScript engines like V8 can keep up with any garbage-collected language, right? There are a few reasons why things are progressing slower on mobile, among them: 1) There is very little browser competition on mobile. Users are either unaware of or don't see the benefit to downloading an alternate browser, and as a result the OS vendors have less of an incentive to improve their browser rapidly. On the desktop browsers like Firefox and Chrome release a new version every few weeks, whereas on mobile the OS vendors release once or a twice a year. 2) The JS engines haven't been optimized for ARM as heavily as x86. We'll get there though. These are very much short-term problems. And despite that, you can write performant mobile web-apps today. If you have an iOS device you should try out the game X-Type: http://www.phoboslab.org/log/2012/06/x-type-making-of http://www.phoboslab.org/log/2012/06/x-type-making-of which is written by a fellow HNer. It is extremely snappy, even when played without the assistance of Nitro.

tysonjennings 14y ago

I think you might be missing the point. Android does a great job of integrating data from the cloud with the operating system. An example is the Google Music player streams your music from the cloud and integrates the player controls with Android on the lockscreen, in the widget, in the status bar etc. The demo video from Canonical shows this kind of integration with last.fm. Nobody is saying Android or Ubuntu is perfect or whatever but there are similarities to what Android does and what Canonical is doing here.

MatthewPhillips 14y ago
The point of this (Ubuntu feature) is not that it's integrating proprietary Ubuntu services with the OS (it has already done that, with Ubuntu One), like your example of Google Music, the point is that it is promoting web applications to first-class citizens alongside the native apps. Android fails at this pretty badly.
- tysonjennings 14y ago
  "web applications to first-class citizens alongside the native apps. Android fails at this pretty badly" Android isn't "failing" at something that it isn't trying to do. Web apps generally suffer from low performance when trying to do anything moderately complex on a mobile device. If you must use web technology to create apps on Android, there is webView in the sdk for you. Many web apps that have tons of users like Google Maps, Pandora, etc. have native apps that are actually performant, follow UI conventions, and have access to all the APIs.
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    You're missing what's right in front of you; the fact that web apps suffer from bad performance on Android is a prime example of how it is failing. Perhaps Google doesn't care about web apps, but that would be a huge turnaround from just a few years ago when it was one of the web's biggest proponents.
    - tysonjennings 14y ago
      I have an iPad and web apps suck on it too. What is your benchmark for good performance? I'm being serious as I'd love to be able to have a legitimate mobile outlet for high performance web applications.
      - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        I think the best example of this is Windows 8, which has 2 application environments, .NET and Trident (The IE10 rendering engine). They are, for all intents and purposes, on equal footing with each other, and an end user can't tell which environment an application uses.
        flatline3 14y ago
        In that case, it's no longer standard or portable HTML/JS, no?
        MatthewPhillips 14y ago
        The engine that powers it is exactly the same, the difference is additional APIs (that add functionality, not performance). Everyone already agrees that HTML/JS needs more APIs.
    - flatline3 14y ago
      It's the prime example of how JS and HTML is a failed model for efficient application implementation. It is not an example of Android's failing.

stinkytaco 14y ago

I don't just want to be able to open webapps on my phone with a shortcut, I want real integration. I'm sometimes not connected to the Internet so I like to have my data offline, but I like to be able to get it online quickly. Android does this very well. Share intents, music player integration, it's just a very slick offline to online seamless system.

MatthewPhillips 14y ago
Rewatch the video, it's more than just a shortcut.
- stinkytaco 14y ago
  Yeah, I'm referring more iOS. I think the idea of "webapps as a first class citizen" is a bit of a red herring. Web apps will never be first class citizens (especially not on a phone) because they fail simple performance tests. I think what OSs ought to aim for is what Android does, a smooth integration of offline and online modes. Ubuntu does this somewhat, iOS not really at all (though it is successful in the way you speak of), but I feel there's a combination of the way Adnroid, iOS and Ubuntu are doing this that could hit a sweet spot.
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    I think you're being short-sighted. There's nothing inheritantly different about mobile that prevents web apps running as well as they do on the desktop. You are aware that on the desktop JavaScript engines like V8 can keep up with any garbage-collected language, right? There are a few reasons why things are progressing slower on mobile, among them: 1) There is very little browser competition on mobile. Users are either unaware of or don't see the benefit to downloading an alternate browser, and as a result the OS vendors have less of an incentive to improve their browser rapidly. On the desktop browsers like Firefox and Chrome release a new version every few weeks, whereas on mobile the OS vendors release once or a twice a year. 2) The JS engines haven't been optimized for ARM as heavily as x86. We'll get there though. These are very much short-term problems. And despite that, you can write performant mobile web-apps today. If you have an iOS device you should try out the game X-Type: http://www.phoboslab.org/log/2012/06/x-type-making-of http://www.phoboslab.org/log/2012/06/x-type-making-of which is written by a fellow HNer. It is extremely snappy, even when played without the assistance of Nitro.