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Not OP, but that point has nothing to do with them being lesbians or females. That label distracts from the actual criticism and bias that sadly played a part.

by zo1 2y ago

Not OP, but that point has nothing to do with them being lesbians or females. That label distracts from the actual criticism and bias that sadly played a part. It could just as well have been "obese native americans with amputations" or "foreign born white dudes with Crohn's disease" or "pansexual blue-haired dance majors" or "three sons of Mayor Dalton that approves the fire department's budget". If that property ticks the boxes, and they occur here at a way-higher proportion than the overall population then bingo - you know you've had bias and reverse discrimination for the sake of representation, rather than merit alone. The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence.

pavlov 2y ago
You’re completely discounting networks, yet most of what people achieve comes through them. Nobel physics prize winners in the 20th century were very often Jewish. And that’s neither evidence of bias for them in the award process, nor evidence of some kind of genetic superiority. The Jewish researchers just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right networks and mentors. Apply the same logic to the lesbian firefighters. Their leadership positions probably don’t have anything to do with either their genetics or any bias, but their personal qualities and their networks. Being a conspicuous “outsider” in the system may have helped them develop relationships and leadership skills.
defrost 2y ago
The point made by pavlov is very real. > The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence. is untrue. In my real world experience of several decade, in multiple countries, (AU, UK, US at the very least) it is commonplace for comany boards and public service departments to have multiple members with common traits, be that schools, debate clubs, sexual orientation, vacation habits, former employers, etc. The networking effects that draw birds of feather together are clearly apparent once you actively look for them. Having several lesbians in senior management of a large organisation isn't particularly noteworthy and it doesn't follow that they would be bad at their job simply because they are lesbians. YCombinator is littered with examples of socially incestuous startups ..

by zo1 2y ago

pavlov 2y ago

You’re completely discounting networks, yet most of what people achieve comes through them. Nobel physics prize winners in the 20th century were very often Jewish. And that’s neither evidence of bias for them in the award process, nor evidence of some kind of genetic superiority. The Jewish researchers just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right networks and mentors. Apply the same logic to the lesbian firefighters. Their leadership positions probably don’t have anything to do with either their genetics or any bias, but their personal qualities and their networks. Being a conspicuous “outsider” in the system may have helped them develop relationships and leadership skills.

defrost 2y ago

The point made by pavlov is very real. > The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence. is untrue. In my real world experience of several decade, in multiple countries, (AU, UK, US at the very least) it is commonplace for comany boards and public service departments to have multiple members with common traits, be that schools, debate clubs, sexual orientation, vacation habits, former employers, etc. The networking effects that draw birds of feather together are clearly apparent once you actively look for them. Having several lesbians in senior management of a large organisation isn't particularly noteworthy and it doesn't follow that they would be bad at their job simply because they are lesbians. YCombinator is littered with examples of socially incestuous startups ..