4 ms·

I have eyes, I can read news, and I can see the results of their work in LA.

by slt2021 2y ago

defrost 2y ago
But you can't explain why its predictable that lesbians --> failure.
- slt2021 2y ago
  it is predictable because they are hired and promoted because of their sexual identity and gender (which has no connection to job duties), not merit. The moment you start hiring based on identity, instead of merit is when things will go south
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    Exactly. If the special non-merit criteria were instead "likes trains" or "has a monobrow" it would have the same effect. Not because those traits are negatively correlated with being good at the job, but simply because those traits are unaligned with the job, so statistically its unlikely for the best candidate to just coincidentally happen to also have those special traits.
- zo1 2y ago
  Not OP, but that point has nothing to do with them being lesbians or females. That label distracts from the actual criticism and bias that sadly played a part. It could just as well have been "obese native americans with amputations" or "foreign born white dudes with Crohn's disease" or "pansexual blue-haired dance majors" or "three sons of Mayor Dalton that approves the fire department's budget". If that property ticks the boxes, and they occur here at a way-higher proportion than the overall population then bingo - you know you've had bias and reverse discrimination for the sake of representation, rather than merit alone. The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence.
  - pavlov 2y ago
    You’re completely discounting networks, yet most of what people achieve comes through them. Nobel physics prize winners in the 20th century were very often Jewish. And that’s neither evidence of bias for them in the award process, nor evidence of some kind of genetic superiority. The Jewish researchers just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right networks and mentors. Apply the same logic to the lesbian firefighters. Their leadership positions probably don’t have anything to do with either their genetics or any bias, but their personal qualities and their networks. Being a conspicuous “outsider” in the system may have helped them develop relationships and leadership skills.
  - defrost 2y ago
    The point made by pavlov is very real. > The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence. is untrue. In my real world experience of several decade, in multiple countries, (AU, UK, US at the very least) it is commonplace for comany boards and public service departments to have multiple members with common traits, be that schools, debate clubs, sexual orientation, vacation habits, former employers, etc. The networking effects that draw birds of feather together are clearly apparent once you actively look for them. Having several lesbians in senior management of a large organisation isn't particularly noteworthy and it doesn't follow that they would be bad at their job simply because they are lesbians. YCombinator is littered with examples of socially incestuous startups ..

I have eyes, I can read news, and I can see the results of their work in LA.

defrost 2y ago

But you can't explain why its predictable that lesbians --> failure.

slt2021 2y ago
it is predictable because they are hired and promoted because of their sexual identity and gender (which has no connection to job duties), not merit. The moment you start hiring based on identity, instead of merit is when things will go south
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Exactly. If the special non-merit criteria were instead "likes trains" or "has a monobrow" it would have the same effect. Not because those traits are negatively correlated with being good at the job, but simply because those traits are unaligned with the job, so statistically its unlikely for the best candidate to just coincidentally happen to also have those special traits.
zo1 2y ago
Not OP, but that point has nothing to do with them being lesbians or females. That label distracts from the actual criticism and bias that sadly played a part. It could just as well have been "obese native americans with amputations" or "foreign born white dudes with Crohn's disease" or "pansexual blue-haired dance majors" or "three sons of Mayor Dalton that approves the fire department's budget". If that property ticks the boxes, and they occur here at a way-higher proportion than the overall population then bingo - you know you've had bias and reverse discrimination for the sake of representation, rather than merit alone. The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence.
- pavlov 2y ago
  You’re completely discounting networks, yet most of what people achieve comes through them. Nobel physics prize winners in the 20th century were very often Jewish. And that’s neither evidence of bias for them in the award process, nor evidence of some kind of genetic superiority. The Jewish researchers just happened to be in the right place at the right time with the right networks and mentors. Apply the same logic to the lesbian firefighters. Their leadership positions probably don’t have anything to do with either their genetics or any bias, but their personal qualities and their networks. Being a conspicuous “outsider” in the system may have helped them develop relationships and leadership skills.
- defrost 2y ago
  The point made by pavlov is very real. > The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence. is untrue. In my real world experience of several decade, in multiple countries, (AU, UK, US at the very least) it is commonplace for comany boards and public service departments to have multiple members with common traits, be that schools, debate clubs, sexual orientation, vacation habits, former employers, etc. The networking effects that draw birds of feather together are clearly apparent once you actively look for them. Having several lesbians in senior management of a large organisation isn't particularly noteworthy and it doesn't follow that they would be bad at their job simply because they are lesbians. YCombinator is littered with examples of socially incestuous startups ..