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> Also some people back then would brag about not having a TV, the same way vegans still do today. This is the toupée fallacy mixed in with something else I ha

by latexr 2y ago

> Also some people back then would brag about not having a TV, the same way vegans still do today. This is the toupée fallacy mixed in with something else I haven’t yet put a name on. Most vegans don’t brag about being vegan, just like most TVless people don’t brag about not having a TV. Some people are assholes and brag about anything, and some of those do the things you mentioned. It’s orders of magnitude more common to see people complaining about vegans (or, for an HN example, Apple users) than the actual bragging. It’s a meme, not the reality.

labster 2y ago
Cool idea, but it’s based on my own experience in life, from a girlfriend and various people in college. And even a newspaper article I read literally this morning. Vegan folks who I knew and talked to every day. That said I could have used airplane pilots for the same example (also based on personal experience).
- latexr 2y ago
  Right, that’s the toupée fallacy. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy You only know about the people who let you know. You have no idea how many vegans or airplane pilots you encounter regularly who never tell you. A small sample is driving the reputation of the whole. For people with whom you talk every day, it’s no surprise that you know. It’s bound to come up but I doubt it happened on your first conversation with everyone. If it did, you were hanging out with a weird group. If they knew each other, it’s normal that they’d talk about a shared interest. Just like people who hang out on HN would be likely to discuss tech when meeting in person. I have no doubt you found your share of asshole vegans, just like there are assholes who make it a point to make everyone know they eat meat. Though it is important to distinguish a true asshole from someone simply sharing an experience. Saying “no, thanks, I’m vegan” when offered a bite of a meat sandwich is not bragging, it’s context. Unfortunately, too many people take it to be a judgement when it most often is not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExEHuNrC8yU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExEHuNrC8yU
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    Very interesting thought. I didn’t know the toupée itself neither the fallacy. Looks like a cousin of the famous survivor bias and both are children of a "observational bias" category. This is only my humble layman guess. The video was interesting too, I’ll have a look at that channel. Thanks for sharing.
    - latexr 2y ago
      That video is part of a larger series on Gamergate. If you liked that one, it’s worth it to see everything. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbee... I also recommend these two earlier videos, on unrelated matters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6y6LEwsKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6y6LEwsKc
  - labster 2y ago
    I never called any vegans assholes. Personality quirks are not wrong, they actually make life fun. I guess the thing I’m getting from you is I shouldn’t comment on my own observations because of toupee bias, and I shouldn’t comment on other people’s common observations because they are just memes an not real. Is there an acceptable threshold for situational humor short of a scientific study? If so, what is it?
    - latexr 2y ago
      > I never called any vegans assholes. I know, I didn’t say you did. In my first reply I said: > Some people are assholes and brag about anything And it’s that narrow definition I’ve been using throughout. > I guess the thing I’m getting from you is I shouldn’t comment on my own observations No, of course that’s not it. We can all comment on our own observations, but it’s also important to differentiate from what we each observe as individuals and what we believe the world to be. We shouldn’t let our limited view of the world cloud our understanding of how it is. > Is there an acceptable threshold for situational humor short of a scientific study? Were you doing situational humour? I reread your comments and can’t find the joke¹. Judging from the grey colour in the original comment, it doesn’t look like I was the only one to miss it if that was the intention. Though I will say unambiguously that I don’t think you’re arguing in bad faith. From my perspective, this has been a cordial chat. ¹ I guess the newspaper comment was a joke, but calling that situational seems like a stretch.

by latexr 2y ago

labster 2y ago

Cool idea, but it’s based on my own experience in life, from a girlfriend and various people in college. And even a newspaper article I read literally this morning. Vegan folks who I knew and talked to every day. That said I could have used airplane pilots for the same example (also based on personal experience).

latexr 2y ago
Right, that’s the toupée fallacy. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacy You only know about the people who let you know. You have no idea how many vegans or airplane pilots you encounter regularly who never tell you. A small sample is driving the reputation of the whole. For people with whom you talk every day, it’s no surprise that you know. It’s bound to come up but I doubt it happened on your first conversation with everyone. If it did, you were hanging out with a weird group. If they knew each other, it’s normal that they’d talk about a shared interest. Just like people who hang out on HN would be likely to discuss tech when meeting in person. I have no doubt you found your share of asshole vegans, just like there are assholes who make it a point to make everyone know they eat meat. Though it is important to distinguish a true asshole from someone simply sharing an experience. Saying “no, thanks, I’m vegan” when offered a bite of a meat sandwich is not bragging, it’s context. Unfortunately, too many people take it to be a judgement when it most often is not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExEHuNrC8yU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExEHuNrC8yU
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  Very interesting thought. I didn’t know the toupée itself neither the fallacy. Looks like a cousin of the famous survivor bias and both are children of a "observational bias" category. This is only my humble layman guess. The video was interesting too, I’ll have a look at that channel. Thanks for sharing.
  - latexr 2y ago
    That video is part of a larger series on Gamergate. If you liked that one, it’s worth it to see everything. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbee... I also recommend these two earlier videos, on unrelated matters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6y6LEwsKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N6y6LEwsKc
- labster 2y ago
  I never called any vegans assholes. Personality quirks are not wrong, they actually make life fun. I guess the thing I’m getting from you is I shouldn’t comment on my own observations because of toupee bias, and I shouldn’t comment on other people’s common observations because they are just memes an not real. Is there an acceptable threshold for situational humor short of a scientific study? If so, what is it?
  - latexr 2y ago
    > I never called any vegans assholes. I know, I didn’t say you did. In my first reply I said: > Some people are assholes and brag about anything And it’s that narrow definition I’ve been using throughout. > I guess the thing I’m getting from you is I shouldn’t comment on my own observations No, of course that’s not it. We can all comment on our own observations, but it’s also important to differentiate from what we each observe as individuals and what we believe the world to be. We shouldn’t let our limited view of the world cloud our understanding of how it is. > Is there an acceptable threshold for situational humor short of a scientific study? Were you doing situational humour? I reread your comments and can’t find the joke¹. Judging from the grey colour in the original comment, it doesn’t look like I was the only one to miss it if that was the intention. Though I will say unambiguously that I don’t think you’re arguing in bad faith. From my perspective, this has been a cordial chat. ¹ I guess the newspaper comment was a joke, but calling that situational seems like a stretch.