3 ms·

uv is great, but downloading and installing base python interpreter is not a good feature as it doesn’t fetch that from PSF but from a project on GitHub, that v

uv is great, but downloading and installing base python interpreter is not a good feature as it doesn’t fetch that from PSF but from a project on GitHub, that very same project says this is compiled for portability over performance, see https://gregoryszorc.com/docs/python-build-standalone/main/ https://gregoryszorc.com/docs/python-build-standalone/main/

zahlman 2y ago
>that very same project says this is compiled for portability over performance Realistically, the options on Linux are the uv way, the pyenv way (download and compile on demand, making sure users have compile-time dependencies installed as part of installing your tool), and letting users download and compile it themself (which is actually very easy for Python, at least on my distro). Compiling Python is not especially fast (around a full minute on my 4-core, 10-year-old machine), although I've experienced much worse in my lifetime. Maybe you can get alternate python versions directly from your distro or a PPA, but not in a way that a cross-distro tool can feasibly automate. On Windows the only realistic option is the official installer.
- globular-toast 2y ago
  Yes, which is why it's silly to do it. Developers (not "users"!) need to learn how to install Python on their system. I honestly don't know how someone can call themselves a Python developer if they can't even install the interpreter!
  - zahlman 2y ago
    The Python community has the attitude that everyone needs to be welcomed; I mostly agree, and I don't see the point in fussing about what people want to call themselves. Everyone starts somewhere, and people try really hard to help (one random example from 2022: https://discuss.python.org/t/python-appears-in-cmd/15858 https://discuss.python.org/t/python-appears-in-cmd/15858) But overall, computer literacy is really on the decline these days. Nowadays before you can teach programming in any traditional sense, you may have to teach the concept of a file system, then a command line...
  - bennofs 2y ago
    I for one enjoy the convenience of automatically installing python versions. Yes I know how to do it manually. Yes it is possible to install multiple versions. But that does not mean I want to do it every time, just to test how things behave in different python versions. For that, it's also okay if it does not install the most performant version of the interpreter.
    - globular-toast 2y ago
      Sure. We've had system package managers for decades. I install a major version once a year and it gets automatically upgraded to the latest patch version by my system package manager, just like everything else.
    - zahlman 2y ago
      >Yes it is possible to install multiple versions. But that does not mean I want to do it every time, just to test how things behave in different python versions You only have to do it once per version with this approach. Then you can create venvs from that base, and it's basically instantaneous if you do it `--without-pip`.
brainzap 2y ago
that it does it automatically is weird
- meitham 2y ago
  I've only noticed after my corporate firewall stopped me!
bityard 2y ago
But PSF doesn't distribute binary builds, so what's the alternative?
- meitham 2y ago
  it does of course here https://www.python.org/downloads/ https://www.python.org/downloads/ or are you referring to linux?

zahlman 2y ago

>that very same project says this is compiled for portability over performance Realistically, the options on Linux are the uv way, the pyenv way (download and compile on demand, making sure users have compile-time dependencies installed as part of installing your tool), and letting users download and compile it themself (which is actually very easy for Python, at least on my distro). Compiling Python is not especially fast (around a full minute on my 4-core, 10-year-old machine), although I've experienced much worse in my lifetime. Maybe you can get alternate python versions directly from your distro or a PPA, but not in a way that a cross-distro tool can feasibly automate. On Windows the only realistic option is the official installer.

globular-toast 2y ago
Yes, which is why it's silly to do it. Developers (not "users"!) need to learn how to install Python on their system. I honestly don't know how someone can call themselves a Python developer if they can't even install the interpreter!
- zahlman 2y ago
  The Python community has the attitude that everyone needs to be welcomed; I mostly agree, and I don't see the point in fussing about what people want to call themselves. Everyone starts somewhere, and people try really hard to help (one random example from 2022: https://discuss.python.org/t/python-appears-in-cmd/15858 https://discuss.python.org/t/python-appears-in-cmd/15858) But overall, computer literacy is really on the decline these days. Nowadays before you can teach programming in any traditional sense, you may have to teach the concept of a file system, then a command line...
- bennofs 2y ago
  I for one enjoy the convenience of automatically installing python versions. Yes I know how to do it manually. Yes it is possible to install multiple versions. But that does not mean I want to do it every time, just to test how things behave in different python versions. For that, it's also okay if it does not install the most performant version of the interpreter.
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    Sure. We've had system package managers for decades. I install a major version once a year and it gets automatically upgraded to the latest patch version by my system package manager, just like everything else.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    >Yes it is possible to install multiple versions. But that does not mean I want to do it every time, just to test how things behave in different python versions You only have to do it once per version with this approach. Then you can create venvs from that base, and it's basically instantaneous if you do it `--without-pip`.

brainzap 2y ago

that it does it automatically is weird

meitham 2y ago
I've only noticed after my corporate firewall stopped me!

bityard 2y ago

But PSF doesn't distribute binary builds, so what's the alternative?

meitham 2y ago
it does of course here https://www.python.org/downloads/ https://www.python.org/downloads/ or are you referring to linux?