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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-... Or refer to Trum

by roenxi 2y ago

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-... Or refer to Trump Impeachment 1, the fuss at the time involved sending military aid to Ukraine. > So if your country is invaded you would surrender "day one"? Yes. If a bloody loss is inevitable that is explicitly what I'm saying. If we were invaded by the likes of New Zealand, Papua New Guinea then I'd probably be OK with fighting. But we were going to be the site of a proxy war the smart thing to do is fold immediately and ask the majors to go elsewhere. Australia wouldn't survive a China-US proxy war if it has reached the point of an actual invasion, we'd be better off surrendering and making do. Although I'd be pointing that out after having attempted to flee the country for obvious reasons.

UltraSane 2y ago
The link you provide was AFTER Russia invaded Ukraine. You can't use the actions of a country to defend against and invasion to JUSTIFY the invasion. Well, Russia does, but it doesn't actually make sense to do so. Ukrainians understand better than anyone just how much you DO NOT want to be under the thumb of Putin. I don't blame them for fighting back. And this isn't, or at least did not start out as a "Russia-US proxy war". Ukraine is a sovereign country that sensibly wanted to forge strong ties to Europe and the West. For selfish and egotistical reasons Putin hated that idea and his puppet was going to ignore this desire so Ukrainians kicked him out.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- roenxi 2y ago
  You can't justify the war with actions taken before the war either, the technical term for that is "unjustifiable". But what the Ukrainian politicians then did wasn't sensible. They've been broken. They have some of the poorest political leadership we've seen out of any country so far in the 21st century. They've managed to transition their country from comfortable and improving to a smouldering wreck. At every turn they've managed to find an option that leaves them unambiguously worse off than they were before. It is a case study in diplomatic failure and what not to do when threatened by a larger, more militarily competent neighbour.
  - UltraSane 2y ago
    " They've managed to transition their country from comfortable and improving to a smouldering wreck." No that was Russia. What you are doing is blaming a women for being punched in the face because she fought back against a rapist.
    - an_guy 2y ago
      Ukraine is a country with army, navy and airforce, therefore not a woman. They are not as big as US or Russia. Ukranian politicians were extremely corrupted[1][2] and they would rather align with money than maintain a stable relation with both countries. Now they are fighting a proxy war on life support while their Economy runs to ground. [1] https://kyivindependent.com/top-10-political-scandals-of-2021-in-ukraine/ https://kyivindependent.com/top-10-political-scandals-of-202... [2] https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corru...
      - UltraSane 2y ago
        An invasion of your own country is not be definition a "proxy war". It is a matter of life and death. You sound exactly like Putin. How strange. Putin's moronic invasion of Ukraine has done a huge amount of damage to Russia's economy. Russia's per capita GDP could be double what it is if Putin wasn't such a complete moron.
        an_guy 2y ago
        At this point, it is a proxy war. Ukraine is running on US/EU loans and weapons. Even their targets decided by Washington. Corruption cases among top ranks of Ukr government isn't helping either.
        UltraSane 2y ago
        Hezbollah attacking Israel is acting as a proxy for Iran because they have no other reason to attack Israel (just ask Hassan Nasrallah). Ukraine fighting Russia is not because they don't want Russia in their country. You make some reasonable points but they are mixed in with extremely typical Russia talking points like "Corruption cases among top ranks of Ukr government isn't helping either." You want corruption? Putin's wealth is impossible to estimate because he can take money directly from the Russian treasure and also force many oligarchs to let him user their yachts and homes.

by roenxi 2y ago

UltraSane 2y ago

The link you provide was AFTER Russia invaded Ukraine. You can't use the actions of a country to defend against and invasion to JUSTIFY the invasion. Well, Russia does, but it doesn't actually make sense to do so. Ukrainians understand better than anyone just how much you DO NOT want to be under the thumb of Putin. I don't blame them for fighting back. And this isn't, or at least did not start out as a "Russia-US proxy war". Ukraine is a sovereign country that sensibly wanted to forge strong ties to Europe and the West. For selfish and egotistical reasons Putin hated that idea and his puppet was going to ignore this desire so Ukrainians kicked him out.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
roenxi 2y ago
You can't justify the war with actions taken before the war either, the technical term for that is "unjustifiable". But what the Ukrainian politicians then did wasn't sensible. They've been broken. They have some of the poorest political leadership we've seen out of any country so far in the 21st century. They've managed to transition their country from comfortable and improving to a smouldering wreck. At every turn they've managed to find an option that leaves them unambiguously worse off than they were before. It is a case study in diplomatic failure and what not to do when threatened by a larger, more militarily competent neighbour.
- UltraSane 2y ago
  " They've managed to transition their country from comfortable and improving to a smouldering wreck." No that was Russia. What you are doing is blaming a women for being punched in the face because she fought back against a rapist.
  - an_guy 2y ago
    Ukraine is a country with army, navy and airforce, therefore not a woman. They are not as big as US or Russia. Ukranian politicians were extremely corrupted[1][2] and they would rather align with money than maintain a stable relation with both countries. Now they are fighting a proxy war on life support while their Economy runs to ground. [1] https://kyivindependent.com/top-10-political-scandals-of-2021-in-ukraine/ https://kyivindependent.com/top-10-political-scandals-of-202... [2] https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corrupt-officials-stole-40-million-meant-to-buy-arms-for-the-war https://www.npr.org/2024/01/28/1227447442/ukraine-says-corru...
    - UltraSane 2y ago
      An invasion of your own country is not be definition a "proxy war". It is a matter of life and death. You sound exactly like Putin. How strange. Putin's moronic invasion of Ukraine has done a huge amount of damage to Russia's economy. Russia's per capita GDP could be double what it is if Putin wasn't such a complete moron.
      - an_guy 2y ago
        At this point, it is a proxy war. Ukraine is running on US/EU loans and weapons. Even their targets decided by Washington. Corruption cases among top ranks of Ukr government isn't helping either.
        UltraSane 2y ago
        Hezbollah attacking Israel is acting as a proxy for Iran because they have no other reason to attack Israel (just ask Hassan Nasrallah). Ukraine fighting Russia is not because they don't want Russia in their country. You make some reasonable points but they are mixed in with extremely typical Russia talking points like "Corruption cases among top ranks of Ukr government isn't helping either." You want corruption? Putin's wealth is impossible to estimate because he can take money directly from the Russian treasure and also force many oligarchs to let him user their yachts and homes.