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>They don't seem to have the juice to pull a war with Russia off. My brother in Christ, Russia can’t even pull off a war with its much smaller neighbor who is

>They don't seem to have the juice to pull a war with Russia off. My brother in Christ, Russia can’t even pull off a war with its much smaller neighbor who is using NATO’s scraps and hand-me-downs.

roenxi 2y ago
I have a tough time seeing it. That requires me to believe that NATO is unhappy about Russia invading Ukraine, capable of turning Russia back and actively choosing not to. But willing to make a mortal enemy of the Russian military by getting a lot of Russians killed. And actively spinning up new military capability because, while obviously they aren't in a hard spot, they need to move to a better place ASAP. I have a much easier time believing that NATO has given Ukraine all the support it can and it wasn't enough to halt the Russian advance. The Russians are clearly paying a terrible price, but NATO doesn't believe it can charge any more than that.
- cycrutchfield 2y ago
  Russia captured barely more than 4000 sq km of territory in all of 2024. Seems like Ukraine is doing quite well halting the Russian advance and making them pay a terrible price.
  - an_guy 2y ago
    Why is no one talking about Ukranian debt? Billions of foreign debt that keeps piling on while their Economy is reliant on EU and US donations/debt to even function. What is the end goal? What happens when Zelenskys friends are no longer in power? How does Zelensky plan to repay his debts during/after war??? Become a satellite state like Japan and S.Korea??
    - cycrutchfield 2y ago
      Nobody’s talking about it because they aren’t the aggressor. They didn’t make this choice. They are fighting for their survival. Russia on the other hand…
      - an_guy 2y ago
        That would make sense if you were a Ukranian gov official trying to get more money. At the end, it's Ukraine who is dependent on and in debt of EU and US. As long as the conflict goes on, politicians gets their cut, no one talks about it but once everything cools down there would be lot of questions regarding who pays what.
        cycrutchfield 2y ago
        OK buddy. Cope harder
    - rat87 2y ago
      Japan and South Korea are in no sense satellites. They are strong rich liberal democracies that choose to stay in an alliance with the US because it makes sense for them. Ukraine may be a flawed liberal democracy but it is a liberal democracy. Ukraine will join the EU after the war. The rebuilding EU subsidies and anti corruption measures that will need to take place to join the EU will significantly grow the economy. The end goal is the defeat of Russia and then giving up conquering their neighbors. And that Ukraine will remain a liberal democratic state. Zelensky will be out of office someday, he's not a dictator like Putin. Some of the debt will be forgiven the rest will be repaid someday. A state has a long lifespan and can repay large loans over that lifespan especially if the economy significantly improves. It may take a 100 years
- ViewTrick1002 2y ago
  This is a video you should watch: "Escalation management and Biden’s strategy for Ukraine" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxZ402BMSs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxZ402BMSs8 See it as Ukraine being drip-fed western weapons in just enough quantities to completely tie up Russia.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    That is saying the same thing from the US's perspective. They've worked out what they are capable of doing and they're working to it. The US military leadership doesn't believe they can go beyond that. If they thought they could do anything more they would. Also the gentleman's dismissal of red line escalation seems unsound. From a game theory perspective the argument is full of holes.
    - ViewTrick1002 2y ago
      You truly did not watch the video? The point is that the EU and especially the US could do way more, but they are not doing it due to escalation management. They are perfectly happy to keep Russia occupied bleeding themselves dry. The last thing the west wants is a cornered Russia lashing out with nuclear weapons or suddenly collapsing. It is a very calculated slow collapse for Russia.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        Well, sure. If the US wants to start uncontrolled escalation against a nuclear power there is a lot they can do. But if we take as a fairly obvious truth that they can't do that, we discover that they're at the limit of what they can do. Their command doesn't think they can handle a war with Russia. And they don't have the ability to stabilise the front lines in Ukraine.
        lostmsu 2y ago
        Nah, just like Russia slowly boiled its citizens into the current state, we can slowly boil Russia into a complete breakdown. Recent permission to use western weapons on Russian soil is an example.
- Vilian 2y ago
  I don't remember f35 in ukraine, nor the latest anti-air defenses, the only thing there are technology from the 80s

roenxi 2y ago

I have a tough time seeing it. That requires me to believe that NATO is unhappy about Russia invading Ukraine, capable of turning Russia back and actively choosing not to. But willing to make a mortal enemy of the Russian military by getting a lot of Russians killed. And actively spinning up new military capability because, while obviously they aren't in a hard spot, they need to move to a better place ASAP. I have a much easier time believing that NATO has given Ukraine all the support it can and it wasn't enough to halt the Russian advance. The Russians are clearly paying a terrible price, but NATO doesn't believe it can charge any more than that.

cycrutchfield 2y ago
Russia captured barely more than 4000 sq km of territory in all of 2024. Seems like Ukraine is doing quite well halting the Russian advance and making them pay a terrible price.
- an_guy 2y ago
  Why is no one talking about Ukranian debt? Billions of foreign debt that keeps piling on while their Economy is reliant on EU and US donations/debt to even function. What is the end goal? What happens when Zelenskys friends are no longer in power? How does Zelensky plan to repay his debts during/after war??? Become a satellite state like Japan and S.Korea??
  - cycrutchfield 2y ago
    Nobody’s talking about it because they aren’t the aggressor. They didn’t make this choice. They are fighting for their survival. Russia on the other hand…
    - an_guy 2y ago
      That would make sense if you were a Ukranian gov official trying to get more money. At the end, it's Ukraine who is dependent on and in debt of EU and US. As long as the conflict goes on, politicians gets their cut, no one talks about it but once everything cools down there would be lot of questions regarding who pays what.
      - cycrutchfield 2y ago
        OK buddy. Cope harder
  - rat87 2y ago
    Japan and South Korea are in no sense satellites. They are strong rich liberal democracies that choose to stay in an alliance with the US because it makes sense for them. Ukraine may be a flawed liberal democracy but it is a liberal democracy. Ukraine will join the EU after the war. The rebuilding EU subsidies and anti corruption measures that will need to take place to join the EU will significantly grow the economy. The end goal is the defeat of Russia and then giving up conquering their neighbors. And that Ukraine will remain a liberal democratic state. Zelensky will be out of office someday, he's not a dictator like Putin. Some of the debt will be forgiven the rest will be repaid someday. A state has a long lifespan and can repay large loans over that lifespan especially if the economy significantly improves. It may take a 100 years
ViewTrick1002 2y ago
This is a video you should watch: "Escalation management and Biden’s strategy for Ukraine" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxZ402BMSs8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxZ402BMSs8 See it as Ukraine being drip-fed western weapons in just enough quantities to completely tie up Russia.
- roenxi 2y ago
  That is saying the same thing from the US's perspective. They've worked out what they are capable of doing and they're working to it. The US military leadership doesn't believe they can go beyond that. If they thought they could do anything more they would. Also the gentleman's dismissal of red line escalation seems unsound. From a game theory perspective the argument is full of holes.
  - ViewTrick1002 2y ago
    You truly did not watch the video? The point is that the EU and especially the US could do way more, but they are not doing it due to escalation management. They are perfectly happy to keep Russia occupied bleeding themselves dry. The last thing the west wants is a cornered Russia lashing out with nuclear weapons or suddenly collapsing. It is a very calculated slow collapse for Russia.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      Well, sure. If the US wants to start uncontrolled escalation against a nuclear power there is a lot they can do. But if we take as a fairly obvious truth that they can't do that, we discover that they're at the limit of what they can do. Their command doesn't think they can handle a war with Russia. And they don't have the ability to stabilise the front lines in Ukraine.
      - lostmsu 2y ago
        Nah, just like Russia slowly boiled its citizens into the current state, we can slowly boil Russia into a complete breakdown. Recent permission to use western weapons on Russian soil is an example.
Vilian 2y ago
I don't remember f35 in ukraine, nor the latest anti-air defenses, the only thing there are technology from the 80s