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> Otherwise I can spread all kinds of made-up stories about my work mates, and claim they illustrate truths about human nature, right? Yes, you actually can do

by imgabe 2y ago

> Otherwise I can spread all kinds of made-up stories about my work mates, and claim they illustrate truths about human nature, right? Yes, you actually can do this, and if those stories do reflect actual human nature that other people also observe then they will be shared and spread. If they warn of potential problems that really do sometimes happen and allow other people to avoid those problems then they will be useful, even if they were made up!

prmph 2y ago
So I can claim you once deleted the master database (although you never did), and use that to warn juniors who join to be careful? I guess we have quite different opinions on slander and defamation.
- imgabe 2y ago
  Yes, I would say you have a very different opinion on slander and defamation from me and also from all of the western legal tradition. You're going to have a bad time when you learn just how much of fiction is loosely based on / exaggerations / distortions of people and events that the author knew or experienced. And, yes, if it helps, you have my permission to tell your junior engineers how ol' imgabe, in his hubris, once deleted the master database and was chained to a rock by the gods to have his liver pecked out by eagles for all eternity.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    > Yes, I would say you have a very different opinion on slander and defamation from me and also from all of the western legal tradition. I think you're misunderstanding what the GP was talking about. If we worked together at a company, and I went to a bunch of junior new hires and said (falsely), "hey, let me tell you about the time imgabe deleted the production database, causing a week-long outage that lost us 20 of our customers", that would absolutely be defamation. That could even be legally actionable if you could prove that story was causing you harm (like perhaps clueless management heard and believed the story, and you were then passed up for promotion or a raise). Not saying that it would be easy to do so, but I personally think you'd be justified in being upset that someone made up a story like that about you. I have a reasonably thick skin, but I certainly wouldn't be pleased that a made-up story like that about me was circulating about me. And even if you seriously wouldn't care about someone making up a story like that about you and using it as an object lesson at your workplace, assuming that no one would ever be offended or upset about that is... well, kinda shitty.
    - imgabe 2y ago
      That is a tortured interpretation of what is happening here, though. Cargo cults did happen. And some of them did in fact operate in the way explained in the stories. The point of the story is not to gloat and say "hahaha these stupid islanders are so dumb and we're so smart". The point is to illustrate a particular type of error and to make people aware that we, too, can make that very same error. That we are not, in fact, better and smarter, but rather the same and just as susceptible to the same errors. The reason we use the story with the cargo cults is because the error is much easier to see from the other side, where you understand how the system actually works and you know why the things the islanders are doing won't actually result in any planes arriving. The point is that sometimes you are on the side the islanders are on where you are not understanding how the system works and you need to recognize that and work on understanding it and not just mindlessly imitating something. This is obvious to anyone who is not walking around desperately searching for something to feel offended about.
- roelschroeven 2y ago
  Aren't we supposed to call it the main database these days? (Sorry for bringing that side branch of the discussion into this one)

by imgabe 2y ago

prmph 2y ago

So I can claim you once deleted the master database (although you never did), and use that to warn juniors who join to be careful? I guess we have quite different opinions on slander and defamation.

imgabe 2y ago
Yes, I would say you have a very different opinion on slander and defamation from me and also from all of the western legal tradition. You're going to have a bad time when you learn just how much of fiction is loosely based on / exaggerations / distortions of people and events that the author knew or experienced. And, yes, if it helps, you have my permission to tell your junior engineers how ol' imgabe, in his hubris, once deleted the master database and was chained to a rock by the gods to have his liver pecked out by eagles for all eternity.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > Yes, I would say you have a very different opinion on slander and defamation from me and also from all of the western legal tradition. I think you're misunderstanding what the GP was talking about. If we worked together at a company, and I went to a bunch of junior new hires and said (falsely), "hey, let me tell you about the time imgabe deleted the production database, causing a week-long outage that lost us 20 of our customers", that would absolutely be defamation. That could even be legally actionable if you could prove that story was causing you harm (like perhaps clueless management heard and believed the story, and you were then passed up for promotion or a raise). Not saying that it would be easy to do so, but I personally think you'd be justified in being upset that someone made up a story like that about you. I have a reasonably thick skin, but I certainly wouldn't be pleased that a made-up story like that about me was circulating about me. And even if you seriously wouldn't care about someone making up a story like that about you and using it as an object lesson at your workplace, assuming that no one would ever be offended or upset about that is... well, kinda shitty.
  - imgabe 2y ago
    That is a tortured interpretation of what is happening here, though. Cargo cults did happen. And some of them did in fact operate in the way explained in the stories. The point of the story is not to gloat and say "hahaha these stupid islanders are so dumb and we're so smart". The point is to illustrate a particular type of error and to make people aware that we, too, can make that very same error. That we are not, in fact, better and smarter, but rather the same and just as susceptible to the same errors. The reason we use the story with the cargo cults is because the error is much easier to see from the other side, where you understand how the system actually works and you know why the things the islanders are doing won't actually result in any planes arriving. The point is that sometimes you are on the side the islanders are on where you are not understanding how the system works and you need to recognize that and work on understanding it and not just mindlessly imitating something. This is obvious to anyone who is not walking around desperately searching for something to feel offended about.
roelschroeven 2y ago
Aren't we supposed to call it the main database these days? (Sorry for bringing that side branch of the discussion into this one)