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> How can it teach us anything about human psychology if it never actually happened? How can the fable of the tortoise and the hare teach us anything if a tort

by imgabe 2y ago

> How can it teach us anything about human psychology if it never actually happened? How can the fable of the tortoise and the hare teach us anything if a tortoise never actually raced a hare?

prmph 2y ago
This is a disingenuous reply. If you tell a story about a human group, and base your ideas of how humans behave based on that, it better be true. Otherwise we can base policy on all kinds of exotic stories that never happened.
- imgabe 2y ago
  It did happen for one thing, and for another such stories, even when fictitious, are crafted to illuminate a human behavior that does happen, even if that particular story did not literally happen. See, for example, all of literature.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
gwd 2y ago
OK, point taken; we tell the Emperor's New Clothes even though it never happened. On the other hand, nobody thinks it actually did happen: it's understood to be ridiculously exaggerated to make a point. And there's not a specific named group of people who are implied to have actually been gullible enough to fall for the trick. I find the actual cargo cult beliefs -- "our ancestors are sending us loads of cargo which the white people are stealing from us" -- in a way far more disturbing in a "teach us something about human psychology" way. Compare to, "There is loads of prosperity available, which {the government, the capitalists, immigrants} are stealing from us."
- imgabe 2y ago
  There are plenty of similar stories about real people though, that aren't true, but we tell them to make a point anyway. I'm sure there's lots of people who believe Einstein flunked grade school math even though he didn't. The point is more important though - flunking grade school math is not the end of the world and you can still be successful in life. Einstein's reputation is relatively unharmed by this fabrication.
  - gwd 2y ago
    I still think it's important that people understand what actually happens. FWIW, as a reasonably clever person (a paper I wrote in the course of my PhD got an ACM Hall of Fame award) who regularly got failing grades until I got into high school, I think that story about Einstein, if I heard it, only did me harm. I started putting in effort in high school sort of on accident. I wish someone would have kicked me in the ass much sooner, told me that nobody cares how smart you are if you don't get the job done, and that I'd better figure out how to make things happen or I'd be a wanna-be loser. OTOH, it's said that people with dyslexia or other neurodivergences which cause them to struggle in school often make good entrepreneurs -- they're used to dealing with failure and used to working around their limitations to get things done. Details matter.
    - prmph 2y ago
      Indeed, that's the point I was making earlier. It's one thing to tell an apocryphal story to illustrate something we already know to be true, and another to base our "truths" on made up stories.
watwut 2y ago
That fable is crystal clear on being made up story. It also does not teach about human nature at all.
- imgabe 2y ago
  Do humans ever get overconfident and slack off and lose to opponents who work more diligently? Why, yes, humans do do that and that’s what the story is about. I think maybe you don’t understand fables, or possibly stories in general.

by imgabe 2y ago

> How can it teach us anything about human psychology if it never actually happened? How can the fable of the tortoise and the hare teach us anything if a tortoise never actually raced a hare?

prmph 2y ago

This is a disingenuous reply. If you tell a story about a human group, and base your ideas of how humans behave based on that, it better be true. Otherwise we can base policy on all kinds of exotic stories that never happened.

imgabe 2y ago
It did happen for one thing, and for another such stories, even when fictitious, are crafted to illuminate a human behavior that does happen, even if that particular story did not literally happen. See, for example, all of literature.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

gwd 2y ago

OK, point taken; we tell the Emperor's New Clothes even though it never happened. On the other hand, nobody thinks it actually did happen: it's understood to be ridiculously exaggerated to make a point. And there's not a specific named group of people who are implied to have actually been gullible enough to fall for the trick. I find the actual cargo cult beliefs -- "our ancestors are sending us loads of cargo which the white people are stealing from us" -- in a way far more disturbing in a "teach us something about human psychology" way. Compare to, "There is loads of prosperity available, which {the government, the capitalists, immigrants} are stealing from us."

imgabe 2y ago
There are plenty of similar stories about real people though, that aren't true, but we tell them to make a point anyway. I'm sure there's lots of people who believe Einstein flunked grade school math even though he didn't. The point is more important though - flunking grade school math is not the end of the world and you can still be successful in life. Einstein's reputation is relatively unharmed by this fabrication.
- gwd 2y ago
  I still think it's important that people understand what actually happens. FWIW, as a reasonably clever person (a paper I wrote in the course of my PhD got an ACM Hall of Fame award) who regularly got failing grades until I got into high school, I think that story about Einstein, if I heard it, only did me harm. I started putting in effort in high school sort of on accident. I wish someone would have kicked me in the ass much sooner, told me that nobody cares how smart you are if you don't get the job done, and that I'd better figure out how to make things happen or I'd be a wanna-be loser. OTOH, it's said that people with dyslexia or other neurodivergences which cause them to struggle in school often make good entrepreneurs -- they're used to dealing with failure and used to working around their limitations to get things done. Details matter.
  - prmph 2y ago
    Indeed, that's the point I was making earlier. It's one thing to tell an apocryphal story to illustrate something we already know to be true, and another to base our "truths" on made up stories.

watwut 2y ago

That fable is crystal clear on being made up story. It also does not teach about human nature at all.

imgabe 2y ago
Do humans ever get overconfident and slack off and lose to opponents who work more diligently? Why, yes, humans do do that and that’s what the story is about. I think maybe you don’t understand fables, or possibly stories in general.