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> The story as told in popular culture gives people a skewed idea of what the cultists are like, and reinforces a skewed and arrogant idea about how much bette

> The story as told in popular culture gives people a skewed idea of what the cultists are like, and reinforces a skewed and arrogant idea about how much better / scientific / whatever the rest of us are. This is precisely what GP is talking about. It is not defamation to infer that a primitive group of people is, well, primitive. You are imagining defamation on behalf of them. The cargo cult story, as it goes, simply describes the (in many ways fascinating) behavior of humans when faced with phenomena they are unable to understand, and how they derive their own interpretations of what happened. Taking a humble approach, we may be in the same position when it comes to things we, from the height of our reason, do not understand as well.

nonrandomstring 2y ago
> Taking a humble approach, we may be in the same position when it comes to things we, from the height of our reason, do not understand as well. Isn't that the main point of that cargo-cult metaphor as used today - a restatement of Arthur C Clarke's technology and magic remark and how we've let our own magic exceed our reason... that we're no longer at the "height" of reason at all?
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  I think so, yes. I used the "height of our reason" phrase a bit ironically. There is quite a lot of things any person is unable to understand about our own word, and you can see how they handle those.
gwd 2y ago
> The cargo cult story, as it goes, simply describes the (in many ways fascinating) behavior of humans when faced with phenomena they are unable to understand How can it teach us anything about human psychology if it never actually happened? > It is not defamation to infer that a primitive group of people is, well, primitive. Primitive doesn't mean stupid. In "Guns, Germs, and Steel", Jared Diamond said that nearly all the tribal peoples he met when doing fieldwork were seemed to be, on average, more intelligent, engaged, curious, and knowledgable than the average Westerner. (In his follow-up book, "The World Until Yesterday", he attempts to capture some potential wisdom that tribal peoples have that he thinks modern society may have lost.) It's this confusion between "primitive" and "stupid" that is exactly the harm that he cargo cult story creates and perpetuates.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  Which is why I used the word primitive, and not the word stupid. If you are making this confusion, that is on you. The "cargo cult" terminology does not imply stupidity. It implies, at most, ignorance. Also, the tale may be apocryphal, but apocryphal tales (such as fairy tales) still can contain interesting insights about how humans behave. Maybe that's why they propagate through time.
  - prmph 2y ago
    > Also, the tale may be apocryphal, but apocryphal tales (such as fairy tales) still can contain interesting insights about how humans behave. Maybe that's why they propagate through time. But do you make it clear to those you tell the cargo cult story that it is supposed to be apocryphal? Otherwise I can spread all kinds of made-up stories about my work mates, and claim they illustrate truths about human nature, right?
    - imgabe 2y ago
      > Otherwise I can spread all kinds of made-up stories about my work mates, and claim they illustrate truths about human nature, right? Yes, you actually can do this, and if those stories do reflect actual human nature that other people also observe then they will be shared and spread. If they warn of potential problems that really do sometimes happen and allow other people to avoid those problems then they will be useful, even if they were made up!
      - prmph 2y ago
        So I can claim you once deleted the master database (although you never did), and use that to warn juniors who join to be careful? I guess we have quite different opinions on slander and defamation.
        imgabe 2y ago
        Yes, I would say you have a very different opinion on slander and defamation from me and also from all of the western legal tradition. You're going to have a bad time when you learn just how much of fiction is loosely based on / exaggerations / distortions of people and events that the author knew or experienced. And, yes, if it helps, you have my permission to tell your junior engineers how ol' imgabe, in his hubris, once deleted the master database and was chained to a rock by the gods to have his liver pecked out by eagles for all eternity.
motorest 2y ago
> The cargo cult story, as it goes, simply describes the (in many ways fascinating) behavior of humans when faced with phenomena they are unable to understand, and how they derive their own interpretations of what happened. Also important, cargo cult mentality implies a inversion of cause and effect and a baseless and unsubstantiated assumption that correlated but irrelevant aspects are actually the root cause of a phenomenon. Such as building runways in the middle of nothing expecting that to be the trigger to have cargo dropped at your feet.
kelnos 2y ago
> It is not defamation to infer that a primitive group of people is, well, primitive. Perhaps not, but it is certainly defamation to ascribe specific pejorative acts to people when they never actually acted in that way. > The cargo cult story, as it goes, simply describes the (in many ways fascinating) behavior of humans when faced with phenomena they are unable to understand, and how they derive their own interpretations of what happened. I feel like we can do this in a way that doesn't create a false narrative about an entire group or class of people, no? And regardless of that, how can a story describe human behavior if the story doesn't describe behavior that actually happened?
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  > it is certainly defamation to ascribe specific pejorative acts to people when they never actually acted in that way Except nothing in the cargo cult story is pejorative? I mean, is it pejorative that ancient people worshipped the Sun as a God for bringing light and warmth to the world, not understanding what the Sun actually is? Religions were developed following that belief too. I fail to see how it defames anything. Maybe the prejudice is in the eye of the observer in this case. Your disrespect for more primitive cultures makes you think their presumed behavior is detrimental to their intelligence. > false narrative about an entire group or class of people, no? First of all, it is not entirely clear that the story never happened. The accounts of cargo cults are disputed. I am simply giving it the benefit of doubt that the story may be apocryphal. Second, the story does not paint a false narrative of anything. It just describes primitive cultures as primitive. Being primitive is not pejorative, it is merely descriptive. If you think it is pejorative, I suggest you spend some time reflecting on your prejudices. > And regardless of that, how can a story describe human behavior if the story doesn't describe behavior that actually happened? Have you ever read any fairy tale or old folktales? "The boy that called wolf"? "The emperor's new clothes"? Perhaps you did not know, but those stories are fiction. Fictional stories can still contain allegories and insights on human behavior. A weird notion, I know. The world is full of things like that.
  - prmph 2y ago
    No, fictional stories can not tell us something new about human behavior. yes, they can illustrate behavior we already know happens, but we need to be careful not to base any new understanding of human behavior on stories that did not happen. Otherwise, then I guess we can stop studying psychology/sociology/anthropology/etc. and instead resort to making up stories all day to fill in what we do not know.

nonrandomstring 2y ago

> Taking a humble approach, we may be in the same position when it comes to things we, from the height of our reason, do not understand as well. Isn't that the main point of that cargo-cult metaphor as used today - a restatement of Arthur C Clarke's technology and magic remark and how we've let our own magic exceed our reason... that we're no longer at the "height" of reason at all?

surgical_fire 2y ago
I think so, yes. I used the "height of our reason" phrase a bit ironically. There is quite a lot of things any person is unable to understand about our own word, and you can see how they handle those.

gwd 2y ago

> The cargo cult story, as it goes, simply describes the (in many ways fascinating) behavior of humans when faced with phenomena they are unable to understand How can it teach us anything about human psychology if it never actually happened? > It is not defamation to infer that a primitive group of people is, well, primitive. Primitive doesn't mean stupid. In "Guns, Germs, and Steel", Jared Diamond said that nearly all the tribal peoples he met when doing fieldwork were seemed to be, on average, more intelligent, engaged, curious, and knowledgable than the average Westerner. (In his follow-up book, "The World Until Yesterday", he attempts to capture some potential wisdom that tribal peoples have that he thinks modern society may have lost.) It's this confusion between "primitive" and "stupid" that is exactly the harm that he cargo cult story creates and perpetuates.

surgical_fire 2y ago
Which is why I used the word primitive, and not the word stupid. If you are making this confusion, that is on you. The "cargo cult" terminology does not imply stupidity. It implies, at most, ignorance. Also, the tale may be apocryphal, but apocryphal tales (such as fairy tales) still can contain interesting insights about how humans behave. Maybe that's why they propagate through time.
- prmph 2y ago
  > Also, the tale may be apocryphal, but apocryphal tales (such as fairy tales) still can contain interesting insights about how humans behave. Maybe that's why they propagate through time. But do you make it clear to those you tell the cargo cult story that it is supposed to be apocryphal? Otherwise I can spread all kinds of made-up stories about my work mates, and claim they illustrate truths about human nature, right?
  - imgabe 2y ago
    > Otherwise I can spread all kinds of made-up stories about my work mates, and claim they illustrate truths about human nature, right? Yes, you actually can do this, and if those stories do reflect actual human nature that other people also observe then they will be shared and spread. If they warn of potential problems that really do sometimes happen and allow other people to avoid those problems then they will be useful, even if they were made up!
    - prmph 2y ago
      So I can claim you once deleted the master database (although you never did), and use that to warn juniors who join to be careful? I guess we have quite different opinions on slander and defamation.
      - imgabe 2y ago
        Yes, I would say you have a very different opinion on slander and defamation from me and also from all of the western legal tradition. You're going to have a bad time when you learn just how much of fiction is loosely based on / exaggerations / distortions of people and events that the author knew or experienced. And, yes, if it helps, you have my permission to tell your junior engineers how ol' imgabe, in his hubris, once deleted the master database and was chained to a rock by the gods to have his liver pecked out by eagles for all eternity.

motorest 2y ago

> The cargo cult story, as it goes, simply describes the (in many ways fascinating) behavior of humans when faced with phenomena they are unable to understand, and how they derive their own interpretations of what happened. Also important, cargo cult mentality implies a inversion of cause and effect and a baseless and unsubstantiated assumption that correlated but irrelevant aspects are actually the root cause of a phenomenon. Such as building runways in the middle of nothing expecting that to be the trigger to have cargo dropped at your feet.

kelnos 2y ago

> It is not defamation to infer that a primitive group of people is, well, primitive. Perhaps not, but it is certainly defamation to ascribe specific pejorative acts to people when they never actually acted in that way. > The cargo cult story, as it goes, simply describes the (in many ways fascinating) behavior of humans when faced with phenomena they are unable to understand, and how they derive their own interpretations of what happened. I feel like we can do this in a way that doesn't create a false narrative about an entire group or class of people, no? And regardless of that, how can a story describe human behavior if the story doesn't describe behavior that actually happened?

surgical_fire 2y ago
> it is certainly defamation to ascribe specific pejorative acts to people when they never actually acted in that way Except nothing in the cargo cult story is pejorative? I mean, is it pejorative that ancient people worshipped the Sun as a God for bringing light and warmth to the world, not understanding what the Sun actually is? Religions were developed following that belief too. I fail to see how it defames anything. Maybe the prejudice is in the eye of the observer in this case. Your disrespect for more primitive cultures makes you think their presumed behavior is detrimental to their intelligence. > false narrative about an entire group or class of people, no? First of all, it is not entirely clear that the story never happened. The accounts of cargo cults are disputed. I am simply giving it the benefit of doubt that the story may be apocryphal. Second, the story does not paint a false narrative of anything. It just describes primitive cultures as primitive. Being primitive is not pejorative, it is merely descriptive. If you think it is pejorative, I suggest you spend some time reflecting on your prejudices. > And regardless of that, how can a story describe human behavior if the story doesn't describe behavior that actually happened? Have you ever read any fairy tale or old folktales? "The boy that called wolf"? "The emperor's new clothes"? Perhaps you did not know, but those stories are fiction. Fictional stories can still contain allegories and insights on human behavior. A weird notion, I know. The world is full of things like that.
- prmph 2y ago
  No, fictional stories can not tell us something new about human behavior. yes, they can illustrate behavior we already know happens, but we need to be careful not to base any new understanding of human behavior on stories that did not happen. Otherwise, then I guess we can stop studying psychology/sociology/anthropology/etc. and instead resort to making up stories all day to fill in what we do not know.