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> You ain't building a solar array or a mega windmill farm in Appalachia - it is a significant upfront cost and very challenging. Why is it only limited to sol

by xyst 2y ago

> You ain't building a solar array or a mega windmill farm in Appalachia - it is a significant upfront cost and very challenging. Why is it only limited to solar or wind? Nuclear is a viable option and requires a shit ton of people to operate and pollution is nil compared to coal and O&G. There are plenty of ways to get this done. However our shitty economic policies based on neo-liberalism economics of the 1970s to 2010s have put us in a place where we are powerless to do anything about it. Decades of deregulation, tax cuts for billionaires and multibillion dollar companies, stock buybacks, subsequent cutting of public services, corporate glazing, hyper capitalistic culture have left us with very little to tackle this issue.

alephnerd 2y ago
> Nuclear is a viable option and requires a shit ton of people to operate and pollution is nil compared to coal and O&G. How are you getting uranium at scale? Mining. What do you need to mine at scale? O&G. Nuclear also has extremely high upfront costs with significant opposition from society, making land acquisition and maintenance costs extremely high. Nuclear Plants also tend to require significant education with some amount of college education. > There are plenty of ways to get this done. However our shitty economic policies based on neo-liberalism economics of the 1970s to 2010s have put us in a place where we are powerless to do anything about it. Decades of deregulation, tax cuts for billionaires and multibillion dollar companies, stock buybacks, subsequent cutting of public services, corporate glazing, hyper capitalistic culture have left us with very little to tackle this issue Maybe, but a major reason why a lot of green energy is viable today is precisely because most of the inputs and maintenance are largely automated, making it much more cost effective at scale. It's difficult to make a case to unionized employees at in the O&G industry to say goodbye to SWE level salaries. The amount of retraining is very high (as these are complex systems) and often require a college education.
- xyst 2y ago
  > How are you getting uranium at scale? Mining. > What do you need to mine at scale? O&G. So existing workforce in mines and O&G can transition to new green economy. Gotcha… > Nuclear also has extremely high upfront costs with significant opposition from society, making land acquisition and maintenance costs extremely high. So let’s stop giving (profitable) O&G billions of dollars in subsidies at the state, federal levels. Redirect subsidies towards acquiring land and maintenance (again more jobs…) > It's difficult to make a case to unionized employees at in the O&G industry to say goodbye to SWE level salaries. Unlike SWEs, those “SWE level salaries” come at the price of high risk of dismemberment, death, and injury. Offshore oil rigs and domestic oil fields are dangerous working environments. Plus is working 12 hr days really worth whatever 6 figures they pay you? Sure you _may_ have a shit ton of money towards the end of your tenure. But lose out on watching your kids grow up.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > So existing workforce in mines and O&G can transition to new green economy. Gotcha ~90% of global uranium produced comes from 4 countries - Kazakhstan, Canada, Namibia, and Australia - not the US. > Unlike SWEs, those “SWE level salaries” come at the price of high risk of dismemberment, death, and injury. Offshore oil rigs and domestic oil fields are dangerous working environments These are dangerous jobs, but clearly the only jobs available in a lot of these areas. As I noted previously, most renewable energy jobs (including nuclear) require some form of college education or significant retraining. It's going to be tough convincing someone to leave a well paid and well benefited job, when the alternative industry is heavily automated and thus doesn't require the same amount of employment. Let's be brutally honest - you aren't going to convince a PV fab to invest in manufacturing in Odessa TX or build a nuclear power plant in Nenana AK. The human capital just doesn't exist AND it is a fairly specialized engineering discipline that cannot be taught on the fly. ------------ I fully agree with you about the need to prioritize renewables, but you are doing a massive disservice to the cause if you are ignoring the very real concerns tens of thousands of employees in the O&G industry have. These are hard questions, and hand waving them away with platitudes like "retraining" is just setting the movement up for failure.
- LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
  > What do you need to mine at scale? O&G. Synfuels produced by atmospheric capture of CO² & Methane by nukkular powered atmospheric processors. Conceptually like https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Processing_Plant https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Processing_Plant / https://www.space.com/terraforming-in-alien-universe https://www.space.com/terraforming-in-alien-universe Not just one. A global grid of them. At scale, yes? Right here. Right now.
worik 2y ago
> Nuclear is a viable option The problems with climate change are problems with time scale of centuries. The problems with nuclear have timescales of millennia The sites remain incredibly, invisibly toxic far longer than we have had people around, into the future. Making the next few hundred generations pay for our current consumption is not really a morally defensible proposition
- LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
  > The sites remain incredibly, invisibly toxic far longer than we have had people around, into the future. That's BS. There are some NPP's already decommissioned, and there is nothing toxic there anymore. The little bits that were, have been transported away, to be stored elsewhere. How that happened, or not so far, varies by region and is often delayed or sabotaged by stupid regulations, shizophrenic neglect and NIMBYism. In similar ways some regions have no, or little battery backup for the grid. Which wouldn't be necessary in the first place, if we hadn't stopped development and refinement of 'nukkular' in the first place about half a century ago. It really isn't that much volume. The most dangerous parts decay the fastest, that's what's making them dangerous. And they could be used in advanced breeder 'nukkularz', FUCK YEAH! The rest is rather harmless, and if our descendents are too stupid to stay away from that stuff, and don't make glowing toys for their mutated brats out of it, they don't deserve better. Or maybe 'hormesis' kicks in another evolutionary step, and they develop true psionics!1!! Call me immoral, I'll call you whiney.

by xyst 2y ago

alephnerd 2y ago

> Nuclear is a viable option and requires a shit ton of people to operate and pollution is nil compared to coal and O&G. How are you getting uranium at scale? Mining. What do you need to mine at scale? O&G. Nuclear also has extremely high upfront costs with significant opposition from society, making land acquisition and maintenance costs extremely high. Nuclear Plants also tend to require significant education with some amount of college education. > There are plenty of ways to get this done. However our shitty economic policies based on neo-liberalism economics of the 1970s to 2010s have put us in a place where we are powerless to do anything about it. Decades of deregulation, tax cuts for billionaires and multibillion dollar companies, stock buybacks, subsequent cutting of public services, corporate glazing, hyper capitalistic culture have left us with very little to tackle this issue Maybe, but a major reason why a lot of green energy is viable today is precisely because most of the inputs and maintenance are largely automated, making it much more cost effective at scale. It's difficult to make a case to unionized employees at in the O&G industry to say goodbye to SWE level salaries. The amount of retraining is very high (as these are complex systems) and often require a college education.

xyst 2y ago
> How are you getting uranium at scale? Mining. > What do you need to mine at scale? O&G. So existing workforce in mines and O&G can transition to new green economy. Gotcha… > Nuclear also has extremely high upfront costs with significant opposition from society, making land acquisition and maintenance costs extremely high. So let’s stop giving (profitable) O&G billions of dollars in subsidies at the state, federal levels. Redirect subsidies towards acquiring land and maintenance (again more jobs…) > It's difficult to make a case to unionized employees at in the O&G industry to say goodbye to SWE level salaries. Unlike SWEs, those “SWE level salaries” come at the price of high risk of dismemberment, death, and injury. Offshore oil rigs and domestic oil fields are dangerous working environments. Plus is working 12 hr days really worth whatever 6 figures they pay you? Sure you _may_ have a shit ton of money towards the end of your tenure. But lose out on watching your kids grow up.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > So existing workforce in mines and O&G can transition to new green economy. Gotcha ~90% of global uranium produced comes from 4 countries - Kazakhstan, Canada, Namibia, and Australia - not the US. > Unlike SWEs, those “SWE level salaries” come at the price of high risk of dismemberment, death, and injury. Offshore oil rigs and domestic oil fields are dangerous working environments These are dangerous jobs, but clearly the only jobs available in a lot of these areas. As I noted previously, most renewable energy jobs (including nuclear) require some form of college education or significant retraining. It's going to be tough convincing someone to leave a well paid and well benefited job, when the alternative industry is heavily automated and thus doesn't require the same amount of employment. Let's be brutally honest - you aren't going to convince a PV fab to invest in manufacturing in Odessa TX or build a nuclear power plant in Nenana AK. The human capital just doesn't exist AND it is a fairly specialized engineering discipline that cannot be taught on the fly. ------------ I fully agree with you about the need to prioritize renewables, but you are doing a massive disservice to the cause if you are ignoring the very real concerns tens of thousands of employees in the O&G industry have. These are hard questions, and hand waving them away with platitudes like "retraining" is just setting the movement up for failure.
LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
> What do you need to mine at scale? O&G. Synfuels produced by atmospheric capture of CO² & Methane by nukkular powered atmospheric processors. Conceptually like https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Processing_Plant https://avp.fandom.com/wiki/Atmosphere_Processing_Plant / https://www.space.com/terraforming-in-alien-universe https://www.space.com/terraforming-in-alien-universe Not just one. A global grid of them. At scale, yes? Right here. Right now.

worik 2y ago

> Nuclear is a viable option The problems with climate change are problems with time scale of centuries. The problems with nuclear have timescales of millennia The sites remain incredibly, invisibly toxic far longer than we have had people around, into the future. Making the next few hundred generations pay for our current consumption is not really a morally defensible proposition

LargoLasskhyfv 2y ago
> The sites remain incredibly, invisibly toxic far longer than we have had people around, into the future. That's BS. There are some NPP's already decommissioned, and there is nothing toxic there anymore. The little bits that were, have been transported away, to be stored elsewhere. How that happened, or not so far, varies by region and is often delayed or sabotaged by stupid regulations, shizophrenic neglect and NIMBYism. In similar ways some regions have no, or little battery backup for the grid. Which wouldn't be necessary in the first place, if we hadn't stopped development and refinement of 'nukkular' in the first place about half a century ago. It really isn't that much volume. The most dangerous parts decay the fastest, that's what's making them dangerous. And they could be used in advanced breeder 'nukkularz', FUCK YEAH! The rest is rather harmless, and if our descendents are too stupid to stay away from that stuff, and don't make glowing toys for their mutated brats out of it, they don't deserve better. Or maybe 'hormesis' kicks in another evolutionary step, and they develop true psionics!1!! Call me immoral, I'll call you whiney.