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> Easy way to use libraries This is both a blessing and a curse. Seeing the rust docs require 561 crates makes it clear that rust/cargo is headed down the same

by nox101 2y ago

> Easy way to use libraries This is both a blessing and a curse. Seeing the rust docs require 561 crates makes it clear that rust/cargo is headed down the same path as node/npm Downloaded 561 crates (50.7 MB) in 5.21s (largest was `libsqlite3-sys` at 5.1 MB)

spullara 2y ago
this is good actually
zdragnar 2y ago
Almost all of the things that were wrong with NPM were self inflicted. No name spacing packages by default, allowing packages to be deleted / removed without approval, specifying install ranges and poor lock file implementation and so on. There's an argument to be made that there are too many packages from too many authors to trust everything. I don't find the argument to be too convincing, because we can play what-if games all day long, and if you don't want to use them, you get to write your own.
- skydhash 2y ago
  The issue is micro-packages. Instead of a few layers between the os and your code, you find yourself with a wide dependency tree, with so many projects that it’s impossible to audit.
  - dwattttt 2y ago
    An alternative of "now everyone who uses a linked list has their own mostly-the-same, but-just-different-enough" list.c and list.h files that need separate auditing (if you care) isn't better.
    - skydhash 2y ago
      If list.c is part of the project, it’s easier because you don’t have to hunt down every dependency’s repository. It’s much easier to audit and trust 5 projects/orgs, than 50 different entities.
      - dwattttt 2y ago
        50 different dependencies covers a _lot_ more behaviour than a list.c. The point would be to audit a list package, and have audited it for all users, rather than all users needing to audit their own.
      - iknowstuff 2y ago
        When you work on rust, in any IDE you can click through any type and see its implementation, even if its within a dependency. No difference in auditing, except you also get the guarantee of `cargo vet`.
dralley 2y ago
By "rust docs" you seem to mean "docs.rs, the website that hosts documentation for all crates in the Rust ecosystem", which is a little bit different than the impression you give. It's a whole web services with crates.io webhooks to build and update new documentation every time a crates gets updated, tracks state in a database and stores data on S3, etc. Obviously if you just want to build some docs for one crate yourself you don't need any of that. The "rustdoc" command has a much smaller list of dependencies.
pornel 2y ago
Cargo is 10 years old, and it's been working great. It has already proven that it's on a different path than npm. * Rust has a strong type system, with good encapsulation and immutability by default, so the library interfaces are much less fragile than in JS. There's tooling for documenting APIs and checking SemVer compat. * Rust takes stability more seriously than Node.js. Node makes SemVer-major releases regularly, and for a long time had awful churn from unstable C++ API. * Cargo/crates-io has a good design, and a robust implementation. It had a chance to learn from npm's mistakes, and avoid them before they happened (e.g. it had a policy preventing left-pad from day one). And the number of deps looks high, but it isn't what it seems. Rust projects tend split themselves into many small packages, even when they all are part of the same project written by the same people. Cargo makes all transitive dependencies very visible. In C you depend on pre-built dynamic libraries, so you just don't see what they depend on, and what their dependencies depend on. For example, Rust's reqwest shows up as 150 transitive dependencies, but it has fewer supported protocols, fewer features, and less code overall than a 1 dep of libcurl.

by nox101 2y ago

spullara 2y ago

this is good actually

zdragnar 2y ago

Almost all of the things that were wrong with NPM were self inflicted. No name spacing packages by default, allowing packages to be deleted / removed without approval, specifying install ranges and poor lock file implementation and so on. There's an argument to be made that there are too many packages from too many authors to trust everything. I don't find the argument to be too convincing, because we can play what-if games all day long, and if you don't want to use them, you get to write your own.

skydhash 2y ago
The issue is micro-packages. Instead of a few layers between the os and your code, you find yourself with a wide dependency tree, with so many projects that it’s impossible to audit.
- dwattttt 2y ago
  An alternative of "now everyone who uses a linked list has their own mostly-the-same, but-just-different-enough" list.c and list.h files that need separate auditing (if you care) isn't better.
  - skydhash 2y ago
    If list.c is part of the project, it’s easier because you don’t have to hunt down every dependency’s repository. It’s much easier to audit and trust 5 projects/orgs, than 50 different entities.
    - dwattttt 2y ago
      50 different dependencies covers a _lot_ more behaviour than a list.c. The point would be to audit a list package, and have audited it for all users, rather than all users needing to audit their own.
    - iknowstuff 2y ago
      When you work on rust, in any IDE you can click through any type and see its implementation, even if its within a dependency. No difference in auditing, except you also get the guarantee of `cargo vet`.

dralley 2y ago

By "rust docs" you seem to mean "docs.rs, the website that hosts documentation for all crates in the Rust ecosystem", which is a little bit different than the impression you give. It's a whole web services with crates.io webhooks to build and update new documentation every time a crates gets updated, tracks state in a database and stores data on S3, etc. Obviously if you just want to build some docs for one crate yourself you don't need any of that. The "rustdoc" command has a much smaller list of dependencies.

pornel 2y ago

Cargo is 10 years old, and it's been working great. It has already proven that it's on a different path than npm. * Rust has a strong type system, with good encapsulation and immutability by default, so the library interfaces are much less fragile than in JS. There's tooling for documenting APIs and checking SemVer compat. * Rust takes stability more seriously than Node.js. Node makes SemVer-major releases regularly, and for a long time had awful churn from unstable C++ API. * Cargo/crates-io has a good design, and a robust implementation. It had a chance to learn from npm's mistakes, and avoid them before they happened (e.g. it had a policy preventing left-pad from day one). And the number of deps looks high, but it isn't what it seems. Rust projects tend split themselves into many small packages, even when they all are part of the same project written by the same people. Cargo makes all transitive dependencies very visible. In C you depend on pre-built dynamic libraries, so you just don't see what they depend on, and what their dependencies depend on. For example, Rust's reqwest shows up as 150 transitive dependencies, but it has fewer supported protocols, fewer features, and less code overall than a 1 dep of libcurl.